Winter heating with a small electric heater

[John E Davies]

FYI, burning 1 pound of propane produces 1.6 pounds (24 fluid ounces) of water. An adult respires from his body about 8 ounces per day. So running a pound of propane would be the same as adding four extra adults. Does anyone know the fuel consumption rate for a Mr.Buddy?

I always thought that it is counter productive to have cross ventilation when using an unvented gas heater. On a windy day that could get drafty and uncomfortable.... you can buy an “outside partially vented” radiant propane heater that sips gas and used only 0.5 amp of power, but it is pretty bulky and I never found a suitable location for it to go in a small Ollie and it still produces a little condensation:  https://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f56/yes-a-great-vented-catalytic-heater-31008.html

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited February 12, 2021 by John E Davies

[topgun2]

JD - Mister Heater claims the following fuel consumption rate for the Buddy heater - Fuel Consumption/Burn Rate (Gal/Hr) at 4000 BTU = 0.044 Gal/Hr. 

Obviously this is a fairly expensive way to get heat in that these one pound containers are relatively expensive AND for the most part there are very few places that recycle the steel tanks.  However, they do save electricity in that they do not use the furnace blower motor or igniter.

When using mine, I place it near the dinette basically pointed towards the rear of the camper - well away from any wall.  Leaving the bathroom door open (as I virtually always do when camping) I simply pop open the bathroom vent.  This supplies enough needed ventilation without creating those cross breezes you mention and I don't have to worry about rain either.

Bill

[John E Davies]

 

2 hours ago, topgun2 said:

JD - Mister Heater claims the following fuel consumption rate for the Buddy heater - Fuel Consumption/Burn Rate (Gal/Hr) at 4000 BTU = 0.044 Gal/Hr. 

They claim 6 hours on Low, 3 hours on High. I also found this in the operating manual, you may want to rethink your venting setup. “This heater requires a minimum vent area of 9 square inches, (example 3” x 3” opening) at the ceiling and at floor level for adequate ventilation during operation. Do not use other fuel burning appliances inside.”

Mr Buddy Manual

I don’t see how you could easily have air coming in at the floor in an Ollie, but a window (located far from the bath vent) cracked open a 1/4 inch would be enough. As tightly constructed as it is, the trailer will not “leak” in enough air otherwise.

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited February 12, 2021 by John E Davies

[Galway Girl]

FWIW- We use this low profile electric heater from Caframo - True North model 9206.

Caframo is a Canadian Manufacturer typically you see their products like fans and gear in the boating world.

True North is a small low profile heater, and that means it doesn't get tipped over (but has a shutoff if it does).
We find it's pretty quiet even at higher speeds.
(Not as quiet as our Vornado, but we find this heater puts out more heat as well.)

It also has a setting for long term storage.
If set to the temp dial to the blue "Snowflake" setting, when the temp drops below 34F it comes on to warm back to 40F automatically.  
That's how we used it in our boat to keep it dry in winter.

We've used it for 2 years...but had one in a boat for about 5 years and they worked flawlessly.

You can see a bit about it in our blog post here:

https://4-ever-hitched.com/ggs-blog/f/we-love-our-caframo

They are on our Oliver Outfitters list on amazon as well.

 

Craig

 

[Ray and Susan Huff]

20 hours ago, Carl Hansen said:

Ray and Susan,

This is great information!  Thanks so much for sharing.  I'm sorry your heater died.  I have been looking around for an appropriate electric heater.  There are so many to choose from.  As I read the reviews of the various models, there doesn't seem to be any one that everyone is happy about.

Have you taken your trailer out since you got home or have you put it to bed for the winter?  We plan on following I-40 home ourselves to visit Joshua Tree NP and then turn North to visit family and head for home.

Carl

Spent three nights last weekend at a local park - Powers (Coos) County Park.  It's less than an hour from home, so we often stay here while exploring the surrounding USFS.  There is a large pond, for fishing and kayaking, but it was too cold for that.  We did some biking and explored FS roads.  Powers Park is our basecamp for the annual Tour de Fronds bike ride that we and several of our family participate in each year.  It was cancelled for 2020 (Covid), but they are hoping the event will go on this year.  

Wishing you safe travels.

[topgun2]

21 hours ago, John E Davies said:

I don’t see how you could easily have air coming in at the floor in an Ollie, but a window (located far from the bath vent) cracked open a 1/4 inch would be enough. As tightly constructed as it is, the trailer will not “leak” in enough air otherwise.

Don't forget about the scupper holes and that air "leaking" around your non-sealed, dust leaking fridge.  

I've never had an issue with the Mister Heater in years of use.  But, then again, I really only use it to take the chill out of the Ollie prior to the sun coming up.  And, as with any use of any thing that involves open flame (think candles, cook top stove) I'm VERY careful in its placement AND operation.  Between this and the safety features already incorporated into the Mister Heater, I feel more than safe.

Finally, I forgot to add that these heaters are virtually silent.  Even my electric heater produces more "noise" due to its fan.

Bill 

[John E Davies]

2 hours ago, topgun2 said:

Don't forget about the scupper holes and that air "leaking" around your non-sealed, dust leaking fridge.  

Touche'. Thanks. I forgot about all those 1/2 inch holes in the belly. Together they should be around 10 square inches. That is actually quite a lot of built-in infiltration.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

 

[Carl Hansen]

On 2/11/2021 at 2:01 PM, Ray and Susan Huff said:

During our trip home we monitored the internal temp of the Lithium batteries via bluetooth. 

For those of us that are not familiar with the Lithium battery package, can you give us some insight into this package?  Do the batteries have their own battery management system? What can you monitor from your phone? Temperature, charge, etc?

Thanks,

Carl

[Ray and Susan Huff]

12 hours ago, Carl Hansen said:

For those of us that are not familiar with the Lithium battery package, can you give us some insight into this package?  Do the batteries have their own battery management system? What can you monitor from your phone? Temperature, charge, etc?

Thanks,

Carl

Our 2021 came with LifeBlue lithium batteries.  Blue-tooth monitors internal battery temp and state of charge.  They also have an internal heat system to maintain proper temperature for charging, but Oliver had some issues with this system overheating.  On our November 2020 built 2021 Elite II, the automatic heating function is disabled.  Oliver installed a heat pad that you have to manually turn on, though it has a thermostat that turns it on and off, as needed, during prolonged cold conditions.  We have not had to use it; on our trip home from Hohenwald, it was in the mid 20's at night, but the internal battery temps remained in the chargeable range (above 35 degrees).

I understand Oliver is using a different lithium battery now; I'm not sure when the changeover takes place - later 2021 models or only for 2022 models.

I'm not sure about battery management system; I know on ours the Zantrex monitor gives you all the charging info.  The solar controller displays some as well.

 

[Carl Hansen]

Thanks for the info!  I appreciate you taking the time!

Carl

[gerfdsasd]

I'm not sure that a small heater can prevent the tanks and plumbing in your trailer from freezing in the winter.

[topgun2]

2 hours ago, gerfdsasd said:

I'm not sure that a small heater can prevent the tanks and plumbing in your trailer from freezing in the winter.

Obviously, that would be a function of just how cold it gets in the winter and how many openings to the area between the hulls you have.

Bill

[Steph and Dud B]

On 2/13/2021 at 12:02 PM, John E Davies said:

Touche'. Thanks. I forgot about all those 1/2 inch holes in the belly. Together they should be around 10 square inches.

Ahh, good point. I've been thinking about ventilation while parked and locked. In our fifth wheel I crack a kitchen window and set the thermostat on the Maxxair fan to maintain a reasonable temp in the cabin. Since the window swings out I can leave it open 24/7. But I can't do that with Ollie windows and I know from experience that the Maxxair can strain to exhaust if there isn't enough air coming in (you can hear the motor bog down). Does anyone leave the Maxxair running when their Ollie is closed up?

[ADKCamper]

I like the idea of being prepared for a potential furnace failure, so thanks for all the useful information!

Interesting observation - after reviewing the specs on quite a few Vornado models, it appears that *all* of the Vornado User Guides specify that the Vornado heater is not to be used on a GFCI protected circuit. I don't know why that would be the case, unless they leak current to ground somehow (even though many models have only 2-prong plugs) instead of returning on the neutral line.

At least in our Elite, all of the 120V receptacles are GFCI protected, which suggests that the Vornado should not be used in the trailer???

[John E Davies]

2 hours ago, Steph and Dud B said:

I know from experience that the Maxxair can strain to exhaust if there isn't enough air coming in (you can hear the motor bog down). Does anyone leave the Maxxair running when their Ollie is closed up?

You are correct, there needs to be some air flowing in, more than the natural leakage through the hull. Cracking the bath vent half way is enough.  I actually measured the amp draw of the fan running on high with everything closed up tight, and also with a little ventilation. The fan definitely struggles in the former, and draws a little more current as well.

It is just common sense really, don’t run an exhaust fan if there isn’t enough airflow to exhaust.

https://olivertraveltrailers.com/forums/topic/5790-how-to-window-dust-pollen-smoke-filter/

John Davies

Spokane WA

[John E Davies]

9 hours ago, ADKCamper said:

Interesting observation - after reviewing the specs on quite a few Vornado models, it appears that *all* of the Vornado User Guides specify that the Vornado heater is not to be used on a GFCI protected circuit. I don't know why that would be the case, unless they leak current to ground somehow (even though many models have only 2-prong plugs) instead of returning on the neutral line.

At least in our Elite, all of the 120V receptacles are GFCI protected, which suggests that the Vornado should not be used in the trailer???

I found this comment at Amazon.

“Also, plugging a heater into a GFCI outlet, which are common in bathrooms, can present problems. GFCI outlets not only protect against ground faults (arcing) but they also provide current limiting for over current. If the GFCI is upstream of another outlet in use, it will limit the output to the heater. The heater will still try to pull enough current to operate and this will cause the outlet breaker to trip. Even if there is no other appliance on the circuit, the GFCI outlet could sense the heater cycling as an over-current situation and trip the breaker. I would suggest you do not use the heater on a GFCI outlet but if you do, be sure no other appliance is on an outlet on the same circuit. 
- Vornado Consumer Service Team see less “

I had never heard that before. But I would not hesitate to run it in my Ollie, I run other brands of heaters and they don’t do anything strange. OTH I wouldn’t run it on high continuously, nor would I have any other high wattage appliance running at the same time. Use common sense, most of what you read in the electrical warnings is pure legal “cover your butt” language, to protect the manufacturer from idiots.

As an aside, I have four circuits in my house that are hyper sensitive to heaters and to electric motors (washer and dryer), the new style arc fault circuit interrupter out in the garage usually trips after a couple of hours of running a heater. So I plug that unit into the nearby bathroom circuit, which obviously is GFCI protected. That works perfectly. The washer and dryer trip theirs once every month or three, randomly. I hate AFCI breakers.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[topgun2]

Agree with JD above.  I've used my small cube ceramic electric heater for years on a GFCI protected circuit with no issues - both at home and in the Oliver.

Given that in the Oliver I generally use the outlet that is located outside the closet, I've been able to touch the wires that come out the back of that outlet.  They have never even been warm nor has the GFCI ever tripped.

Bill

[Mike and Carol]

2 hours ago, ADKCamper said:

I like the idea of being prepared for a potential furnace failure, so thanks for all the useful information!

Interesting observation - after reviewing the specs on quite a few Vornado models, it appears that *all* of the Vornado User Guides specify that the Vornado heater is not to be used on a GFCI protected circuit. I don't know why that would be the case, unless they leak current to ground somehow (even though many models have only 2-prong plugs) instead of returning on the neutral line.

At least in our Elite, all of the 120V receptacles are GFCI protected, which suggests that the Vornado should not be used in the trailer???

We’ve been using a Vornado heater in our Oliver for over 5 years.  No issues.  It has 3 settings, 750W, 1150W and 1500W.  It’s usually on the low setting, maybe the middle setting.  Even on high, 1500W, it has never popped the breaker by itself.  We do turn it off while coffee is being made.  Mike

 

[routlaw]

Having read through this entire thread, clearly the term winter and cold weather is a relative term. Last night our temps dropped down to -7º F with wind chill of -35º F and most of February and so far the bulk of March has been like this or close to it. Under these circumstances the Oliver is NOT a 4 season camper IMHO.

We have camped numerous times when temps were in the mid teens to mid 20's + or - a few degrees and the Oliver does reasonable well, but I have always felt the furnace is underrated at 16,000 BTU input and running at 40-50% efficiency this allows for only about 8,000 BTU's of actual useable heat which would be fine in a highly efficient well insulated enclosure. There have been some excellent suggestions in regards to remote sensors, portable propane heaters and such which I have owned a few of but sold due to lack of use. I'm thinking it would be wise to pick one up again in case of emergencies.

Using electric heaters here in Montana winters is a mixed bag at best. Last winter I got caught unprepared and did not get the Oliver winterized before we were hit with an early winter storm in Sept or Oct (memory is a bit fuzzy on this) which lasted for days. I have 3 electric portable heaters and not a one of them could keep our Oliver warmer than the low 40's for days on end of running them non stop. So just a word of caution there are limits to Olivers claim of 4 season camper. Not trying to beat up on Oliver but from my perspective 4 season camper is relative. Thanks for the great suggestion. 

[Mattnan]

I would agree that I wouldn't feel comfortable for an extended stay below 5 or so degrees for an extended period of time and at those temps would just pump a little antifreeze into the water ports.  Just make sure you bypass the water heater when flushing the inlets.  We tend to be conservative and if the temps are dropping below 28 for the evening we run the propane furnace to keep the basement warm.  If under 15 degrees we will open the basement door.  None of this is scientific.  Just what we do.  Our vornado gave out on us so I picked up a small ceramic heater at tractor supply for $20. It was physically smaller than the vornado but same wattage.  It works great!!! Pleasantly surprised.  

[topgun2]

Like this one?

 

[ADKCamper]

Thanks, JD for the comment you found from Vornado Consumer Service. I agree there's likely a preponderance of legal risk management going on there. People run 1500W hair dryers on GFCI's in bathrooms all the time. RE Vornado's comment "GFCI outlets not only protect against ground faults (arcing)..." As I'm sure you know (but apparently Vornado Consumer Service doesn't), ground faults are not necessarily "arcing"... which is of course why the newer AFCI's were developed. In my opinion the design of AFCI's is still a work in progress, but that's a discussion for another time. Good news is there is not (yet) an AFCI in my trailer 🙂

I also agree with routlaw regarding 4-season camping in the Olivers. I've lived and camped for years in several locations in central and northern NY State, and while our weather isn't as consistently cold as in Montana, it certainly gets there from time to time. Sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and winterize the trailer's water and waste systems, and pay attention to the (lithium) battery temperatures...

[Mattnan]

This is the $20 Tractor Supply model.  I give up for some reason all my photos are rotating today. 

 

[Steph and Dud B]

1 hour ago, Mattnan said:

This is the $20 Tractor Supply model.

 I've had one of those in my office for a few years. My wife bought one for her office, too. Good little heaters.

[topgun2]

1 hour ago, Mattnan said:

I give up for some reason all my photos are rotating today. 

Really?😇