Anyone else watch the Tesla Cybertruck launch?

[mossemi]

13 hours ago, BackofBeyond said:

I was - attempting to use tech to do things way before it was feasible - try getting a commodore 64 to do some system control over the land lines -  long before there was a WWW. 

RB

Was that at 300 baud?😃

Mike

[Landrover]

11 hours ago, John E Davies said:

The Atlis (spelled with an "i") looks very cool, but as with so many startups looking for investors, we see many glowing promises and apparently wild claims, like a 15 minute charge time. How many of these will prove to be realistic? The specs do look pretty amazing....

https://www.atlismotorvehicles.com/xp-platform

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

I agree these manufacturers tend to stretch the truth to hype the consumers. Real world stats are not released until after they are produced with disappointing results. Just like the 2020 Chevys claiming super increased tow ratings on the 1500 and 2500  I haven’t seen one on the lot yet to make this claim true.

[BackofBeyond]

11 hours ago, mossemi said:

Was that at 300 baud?😃

Mike

3 turtles with arthritis to be more accurate. It was a caveman attempt looking back. 

[BackofBeyond]

1 hour ago, Landrover said:

I agree these manufacturers tend to stretch the truth to hype the consumers. Real world stats are not released until after they are produced with disappointing results. Just like the 2020 Chevys claiming super increased tow ratings on the 1500 and 2500  I haven’t seen one on the lot yet to make this claim true.

At least GM actually builds a truck - currently Atlis is a hope and a prayer. Interesting platform, versatile, with a lot of PT Barnum.  If what they say is true, it would seem Elon would be doing it.... doesn't appear they have a proprietary technology, just some different engineering designs. There are 477 customers as of now - yet no actual operation, supply chain, and on, now this is early adoption...

Honestly, as much grief as I give Tesla, they could do what Atlis is proposing and have production going fairly quickly - once the tech is developed - the 15 min charge,,,,, perhaps their idea of plug/play and banking them at stations is the 15 min claim. That would entail a huge infrastructure spend. I wonder why the industry hasn't developed a standard and worked towards this goal - probably same reason my Makita tools won't accept my Dewalt batteries, nor will they fit my Bosh chargers...….. 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by BackofBeyond
miss typed

[Overland]

I don't think that Atlis even have a prototype yet.  What they've released so far is just (very well made) renderings.  

I'm pretty sure that Ford holds the Atlas trademark for pickups, and I'm not sure that changing a vowel is going to get them around that.

The Rivian has serious backing from both Amazon and Ford.  It seems real.  

I like the Bollinger design, but I don't think they have backing either, and their $125,000 price point won't fly.  

Edited December 3, 2019 by Overland

[SeaDawg]

Rivian look like a truck, and apparently actually runs like a truck. A real prototype has been on tour, and is or was in South America doing offroad and bad road testing. Video of the engineer test driving in South America was really fun to watch. I was grinning along with her. https://stories.rivian.com/postcard-from-south-america

Rivian also recently secured additional funding from Cox automotive.  Amazon, Ford, and Cox probably can't all be wrong... https://ride.tech/electric-and-hybrid/electric-truck-maker-rivian-gets-350m-investment-from-cox/?gclid=CjwKCAiArJjvBRACEiwA-Wiqq3fPhuXBIm9jA0lpbZSb4XeY7LWfO2hZkRA6Lfpi9t7EXHrWd62ckhoCUHwQAvD_BwE

Atlis has a sizeable staff, a beautiful website, and still no prototype yet. They did test a small battery of their own design development,  3kwh, and proudly announced it was fully charged in 13 minutes, besting their 15 minute goal, which they think/ hope is scaleable.   https://insideevs.com/news/340388/atlis-pickup-truck-battery-charges-in-under-13-minutes/

3 kwh would power a Tesla x for about 8 to 12 miles, i think, dependent on speed, based on battery size vs published and real world range for the x. While Atlis is still looking for backing for development and yet another network  of superchargers, Space X will be launching its 19th delivery to the space station tomorrow, and Tesla's network of superchargers is in place and growing. 

I wish them well. But, a lot is still in just planning and digital mode for now. It takes a lot of money to launch a new vehicle. Still, the more new ideas, the better.

Thanks for bringing the Atlis to the discussion. 

 

[SeaDawg]

9 hours ago, BackofBeyond said:

3 turtles with arthritis to be more accurate. It was a caveman attempt looking back. 

But, we all had to start, somewhere. Back in the day, it was high tech.  3 turtles and all.

I remember our first office computer system. It wasn't really fast or great, but it was a step forward from typed carbon leafed invoices and cross posting/ cross filing.

Oh, and that first amazing Fujitsu 474 megabyte hardrive. Almost the  size of a dishwasher laid sideways, and only cost about 10k. 

Now, think about the computing power in our phones. It's astounding, isn't it?

 

[Overland]

54 minutes ago, SeaDawg said:

Oh, and that first amazing Fujitsu 474 megabyte hardrive.

 

MEGAbytes?  Luxury. My high school job was working with an IBM 360. 

And I used to sneak into the accounting deptartment after work to write my English essays on their Apple III. 🙃

Edited December 4, 2019 by Overland

[Overland]

Here's a good look at the probable towing range of the Tesla.  I like this guy's videos, and his numbers are usually fairly accurate when he tests them in the real world.  Without redoing his numbers, you have to interpolate between his Model X calculations and the Cybertruck's, since he's assuming a full 14,000lb trailer on the truck.  I would guess that the numbers would be closer to those of the Model X, but some amount higher.  So, towing at 60mph, maybe 100kw per 100 miles, or ~200 mile range?  I was hoping for something close to my Raptor, which is ~350 miles, which for us would be two charging stops per day maximum, since on longer days, we tow between 600 and 700 miles.  So if my tolerance for charging is two stops, then I would be limited to 600 miles with the Cybertruck and then only at the limit of efficiency, since that 200 mile range is probably optimistic.  Maybe 150 or 175 miles is a better place to set expectations, which would be a 3-stop day on longer stints.  Is that still O.K.?  For some, I'm sure - but probably not for us.  If we lived out west and were retired, so that we could take a more leisurely pace and didn't have to spend two full days on the road just to get anywhere worth seeing, then I'd probably be O.K. with the truck as it is.  But in our current situation, I think we need a good 300 miles of towing range at least before an EV would work for us as a tow vehicle.  

 

[BackofBeyond]

I liked the title - Yes -- the fellow does a great job on the video. It is clear - the tech has a ways to go for most real world towing needs.  I'd wager a few $$ that within a few years we see a step change in the storage platforms - that's the current bottle neck in my mind.  Maybe not - but given where the industry is currently - build out the infrastructure,   bring down the cost, and improve the range/charge time - and EV hits mainstream with wide support. And us heavy duty TV folks can keep doing what we are doing - and drive the EV for everything else. 

[Overland]

While we have owners all over the map in terms of how they travel, I’d venture to guess that the average travel day for a retiree is around 4 hours. At least, if I were retired, that’s the pace that I would take. And most probably tow at 60mph. If that were me right now, I’d give the truck some serious thought. Charge in the morning at breakfast and then again at lunch. 

[SeaDawg]

Yes, it will be interesting to see what the actual battery capacity and towing range will be in the Cybertruck. I'm not even going to try to rework his math. (Though even Steve's trailer doesn't weigh half of his example trailer, and mine is less than a third of the example weight. And, I can't honestly remember the last time we gained a net 5000 feet elevation in one hundred miles of driving, at an average of 75 mph , even with the Ram's hemi.) 

It would be quite nice if Tesla did some real world testing while towing with the Cybertruck, as they have done with the yet to be released Tesla semi, but the necessity isn't the same, when many pickups never or rarely tow a trailer, at all, or, just tow a utility trailer short distances for work. Semi purchasers will insist on meeting full load towing projections. Their livelihoods depend on it.

Some recent efficiency changes in Tesla motors have upped the range of the newer s and x by a small per centage, with the same battery .  I've heard some battery improvements are upcoming, as well. We'll see what we get in a couple years, when the pickup actually hits the road.

Overland,  I,  too, am hoping for a 300 to 350 mile range, with my little Ollie in tow,  though I'm not holding my breath.   

Even a 300 mile range towing would slow us down, when we're trying to put miles behind us. With the ram's big gas tank, even towing, we can travel at least 300 miles or so, or 4 to 4.5 hours on the interstate. If our coffee intake doesn't make us stop earlier. 😏  

As far as towing with a Tesla x, I was reminded of a video I saw of test drives in Australia,  from Penrith, (elevation 80 ft or so) outside Sydney, to Bathurst, via the great western highway, and back, via Bell's Line of road. Both beautiful roads, in the Blue Mountains.  Nothing approaching mile high, but plenty of mountain driving, with high points  of maybe 3000 ft. Or so. More real world. And, a bit over 100 miles. With a roughly 4000 lb trailer behind the Tesla x, it used about twice as much battety power than when driving  without the trailer.  Same as we've heard from most reports with the x.

Probably important to note a couple of other things. The test drivers reported great towing stability, and acceleration with the x. And, Australian speed limits wouldn't allow towing at 75 mph. 😏 The x arrived at bathurst with 12 per cent capacity left. A bit better on the return on the more windy and slower Bell's Line of Road. (Which is a beautiful road, by the way. We drove it in 2015, in a campervan.)

Full report https://www.carsguide.com.au/adventure/tesla-model-x-74243

Video

 

 

 

[John E Davies]

That tow video was very interesting. Thanks for posting. 
 

John Davies

Spokane WA

[BackofBeyond]

17 hours ago, Overland said:

While we have owners all over the map in terms of how they travel, I’d venture to guess that the average travel day for a retiree is around 4 hours. At least, if I were retired, that’s the pace that I would take. And most probably tow at 60mph. If that were me right now, I’d give the truck some serious thought. Charge in the morning at breakfast and then again at lunch. 

For us, retired, or not - (I am, she has summer free)  our usual MO is to get to where we are going- asap- and then explore from there. Living where we do - TN - our westerly trips mean use the interstates and such and just go - until we can't, stop, rest up, and go again till we reach the desired spot. 1000 mi days may not be the norm, but they have happened, 800 is a good - get there day..... And the other MO is to spend a great deal off the beaten path, taking the back roads and byways, to the next place - which often is not known until we discover it, or just stop at a decent (or not) spot on the path of our "general" direction.  And that is the main reason the EV doesn't work for us in the current state.

Towing at 60 mph - not on the big roads - 70 is the norm - if posted appropriately.  I have caught my spouse doing 80, ( ok. I'm guilty too) problem is -  the GMC/Oliver is as smooth at 80 as it is at 60.... fuel mileage is almost the same 60-70 range - 15mpg. And I realize some may be wary at anything above 60, I'm very comfortable here. Meals are predominantly on the go, or a short stop - the ollie is so versatile here.  I don't know how long a charge takes, but 20 min is about our mean stop time. Last long trip included many <300 mi days - so here the EV may have been fine.  Its just the lack of versatility overall in our use patterns  that preclude EV towing. 

I Enjoy these discussions, I always learn something. 

 

[DavidS]

One of the concerns is the amount of time it takes to charge an electric vehicle, compounded if a trailer is in tow. I saw this in a recent issue of the journal Nature:

A lithium car battery can power a 320-kilometre drive after just 10 minutes of charging - as long as its temperature is hiked up to 60°C while it is being replenished. Lithium batteries, which are commonly used in hybrid and electric vehicles, rely on lithium ions to create a current. Charging at room temperature can take two to three hours, meaning that the need to recharge on a long-distance drive can make for a trip that lasts much too long. To solve that problem, Chao-Yang Wang and his colleagues at Pennsylvania State University in University Park heated a lithium battery to 60 °C, which allowed the researchers to charge the battery at a high rate in just 10 minutes.

They had this link to the original paper in the journal Joule. BTW, 320 km is 199 miles, and 60°C is 140°F.

Technology always moves forward....

[SeaDawg]

3 hours ago, DavidS said:

One of the concerns is the amount of time it takes to charge an electric vehicle, compounded if a trailer is in tow. I saw this in a recent issue of the journal Nature:

A lithium car battery can power a 320-kilometre drive after just 10 minutes of charging - as long as its temperature is hiked up to 60°C while it is being replenished. Lithium batteries, which are commonly used in hybrid and electric vehicles, rely on lithium ions to create a current. Charging at room temperature can take two to three hours, meaning that the need to recharge on a long-distance drive can make for a trip that lasts much too long. To solve that problem, Chao-Yang Wang and his colleagues at Pennsylvania State University in University Park heated a lithium battery to 60 °C, which allowed the researchers to charge the battery at a high rate in just 10 minutes.

They had this link to the original paper in the journal Joule. BTW, 320 km is 199 miles, and 60°C is 140°F.

Technology always moves forward....

True, David s. Technology keeps rolling forward. Back last spring, Tesla started rolling out over the air updates to preheat batteries of model 3s heading to superchargers. I  think it's updating all models, but not sure about that. Downside, uses some remaining onboard battery power. Upside, significantly faster charging time. As I  said before, it's about a two year wait for the Cybertruck.  We'll see what's what when it hits the road.

Btw, Overland, thanks for the intro to Engineering Explained. That guy has a really interesting  facebook page, and youtube channel. Most of which does not require an advanced math brushup course to understand. For the record, his latest car is a Tesla model 3, which he took on a roughly 2000 mile trip, and shared the results in another youtube video. So, he does have real world experience with evs, just not towing (yet.)

Sherry 

 

 

[BackofBeyond]

I can see something being fairly viable in the near future, Just don't think I'll be in the first adopter group. I would like a smaller SUV electric if we were to stay in one general area. To be 20 again, my these would have been a good option. 

RB

[SeaDawg]

I won't likely be an early adopter, as the website failed with too many deposits on reveal night. I'm somewhere 250,000 down the list... but looking forward to the day, somewhere in tbe next two or three years. 

In the meantime, my little 2005 stepside Silverado is one of my favorite daily driver rides of all time, though I  should replace the foam in the driver's seat. 

Sherry

Edited March 11, 2020 by SeaDawg

[WhatDa]

We got a great offer on our Lincoln and just sold it --  and now need to get something else.  I was planning on riding it out until the Cybertruck hit (I have two early reservations for the cybertruck, one for the 300+ and one for the 500+ mile versions). 

Most of the videos are taking into account much larger (aerodynamically) trailers than the Oliver.

For our cross-country drive, we usually did 300-400 miles/day.  So even if I got half of "500+" mile range, I'd be looking for a supercharger at the 200-225 mile range (leaving a little buffer).   A stop at a supercharger for lunch and we're on our way.   So long as the supercharger and our destination are spaced appropriately.  But that assumes I have a "500+ mile" range at the given conditions.  What none of the videos discussed is what happens in an electric car when things get cold.

 We crossed Wyoming in the teens, with snow on the interstate, with 40+ mph quartering headwinds.   For the cybertruck this means battery needs heating, interior/windshield needs heating, snow tires with higher rolling resistance, the trailer is no longer in the aerodynamic shadow of the trailer, the air is more dense, etc...  That the point where I don't know how the Tesla would have done -- probably added more stress to an already stressful situation.

I am looking long and hard at a Ram 1500, with the ecodiesel and 33 gallon tank.  900-1000 mile range unladen, easily a full day pulling the Ollie.  Going from that to a Cyber Truck might be hard, but I guess it depends on where fuel prices end up.  Eventually full electrification is inevitable - but I think I might be giving up my 300+ range reservation if this truck works out and doesn't become an FCA lemon.  

With electrification being more inevitable, what changes do trailer manufacturers need to look at?  I think the Oliver would be pretty close to ideal, maybe an underbody /wheelwell fairing to clean things up, and a cleaner roofline (time for a mini split).  Lower rolling resistance tires?  Part of the reason the Model X suffered more range loss than the Land Rover, is the Model X chases all these marginal gains while the Land Rover is almost stubbornly avoiding them - so the drag from the trailer is that much higher of a multiple.

 

 

[SeaDawg]

Whatda, you're more limited than i am, because I have the original/shorty elite. But, I  wouldn't hesitate to tow either elite with our 2008 Ram 1500 hemi. It (might) stink on mountain passes with your bigger elite 2, but we don't really notice a difference with the shorty. 

How often do you cross the Rockies?

[Overland]

1 hour ago, WhatDa said:

With electrification being more inevitable, what changes do trailer manufacturers need to look at? 

Eventually, trailers will need their own battery banks. Shortly after that, you’ll see trailers incorporating their own drivetrains, with stability systems built in so that you can tow with anything. That’s my opinion at least. 

[ScubaRx]

 

On 3/15/2020 at 9:41 PM, Overland said:

Eventually, trailers will need their own battery banks. Shortly after that, you’ll see trailers incorporating their own drivetrains, with stability systems built in so that you can tow with anything. That’s my opinion at least. 

Wonder if they might be called M-O-T-E-R-H-O-M-E-S ?

[Overland]

Yeah, but in reverse - instead of pulling a jeep, the jeep pulls the bus.  

Hey but by then, everything will be autonomous, so we won't even have to attach the trailer.  It'll just follow behind like a big puppy.

[Mike and Carol]

Just program it to drive out to the site and self-level and then meet it out there later in the day.

[WhatDa]

I guess I am thinking also of what trailers would need to do in this new future.  More aerodynamic/lower rolling resistance.  Or maybe motor home is where we go?  With new emissions controls:  Furnace, AC, hot water heater, and fridge all on the same high efficiency refrigerant heat pump loop (ie keeping your fridge cool and your hot water hot with the same loop) as burning propane goes away.  Solar roof/awnings (maybe more gull-wing than rolling flexible panels).