Heat Management of Lithium/Solar/Charging Upgrades

[Geronimo John]

 

We purchased our 2018 Oliver LE2 (Hull 342) with basic batteries, 2,000 watt inverter, 45 amp converter.   At the time, Lithium's were prohibitively expensive and I figured that by the time my Duralast LA's were getting long in the tooth, less expensive options would be available.   We now see many options for advance power systems, and my Duralast batteries likely will not last a 5th year.  Time to upgrade.

So, for the past month or so I have been researching, reading, purchasing, and gathering tools, supplies and materials for the modernization of our power systems. As Galway Girl I am phasing the effort:  Phase one is lithiums, initial solar capability, and DC to DC charging.  Phase II will be to upgrade my Inverter to a 3,000 watt version and possible roof mounted additional solar to support limited duration boondocking no generator Air Conditioning.

For Phase one, here are the major components I have purchased, or are planning to purchase:

• 3 each 100 Ah Battleborn Lithiums
• Victron 712 Smart Battery Management System
• Victron Orion 12|12 -30 DC to DC Charger (Power from F-150 alternator/battery
• PD 4060 (60 Amp) Converter with Lithium Capability  ( 😊 Andrew Kesner! )
• Pending purchase of Renogy 100 or maybe 200 watt solar suitcase kit

After next summer's installation effort, I'll post a report with lists of materials and my thoughts.

 My trailer almost never will to be used in freezing conditions.   It is almost always used in hot mountain or desert conditions.  As such, for Phase 1, heat management of the Orion and Renogy Voyager Solar Charge Controller are the subjects for which I am seeking your thoughts and suggestions:

• I will be using the Orion only when traveling.  As such, I am considering mounting it in the storage area that is under the dinette front seat (Not the footwell).  When traveling, I would remove the seat cushion and storage hatch cover to vent heat.  This heat would be dissipated into the cabin, where it could be managed at stops by using the MaxFan.

• I will be using the Voyager 20 amp Solar Charge Controller only when boondocking.  I would like to mount the Voyager in the battery bay.  Will this unit produce enough waste heat to be of concern to the three Battleborns?  Would it require supplemental ventilation as a result? 

Thank you,

GJ

 

[mossemi]

59 minutes ago, Geronimo John said:

PD 4060 (60 Amp) Converter with Lithium Capability  ( 😊 Andrew Kesner! )

My 2017 LE2 PD4045 charger module was not lithium compatible, so I replaced it with a 45 Amp lithium compatible module.  Have you verified that yours is not lithium ready.  And if you haven’t already researched the increased AC and DC load requirements, I think you should verify that the wiring and other components of the 12V DC circuit will in fact be suitable for a 15 Amp upgrade and the 120 AC feed for the increased load.

I don’t have a DC to DC charger but JD mounted his under the street side bed so heat may not be an issue.  I don’t remember if Galway Girl experienced any excessive heat issues with their install.

When I installed three BB batteries, I followed Overland’s example and removed all wiring in the battery box except the main 12V B+ and ground and the temperature wire for the Victron 712.  And I don’t have any advice about SCC heat output other than the Zamp SCC isn’t a large heat source and it is installed in a very small cubby above the radio.  The heat from both of them combined was not a worry for me.

God luck and have fun with your upgrades and additions,

Mossey

[Geronimo John]

Mossey:

Thanks.  Yes, I am aware of the PD 4045 having/not having the switch/pins (depends on year) for LI compatibility. 

I have the JD recommended electrical meter for checking the actual loads on the component feeds.  In fact, both of my son's and my brother last Christmas got one I liked it SOOOOO much.  If any of the lines show any heat or are amp max even close, I have a hydraulic crimper and can upgrade those at easily.  Knowing the lug to lug distance makes the process a no brainer.  

For all new stuff, I am very conservative on cable selections and lugs.  All good there.

For the DC to DC under the street side bed, more than one owner has mentioned excessive buildup there as a result of the converter and inverter both feeding heat below th aft dinette seat and street side bed.  Although my wife LIKES it as she tends to get chilled, I did not want to add any there if possible.  Hence I discounted that location.  I'm 6'3 and 240 with size 15 feet.... so foot space under the dinette table eliminated that as an option.  I looked at under the propane area, but fire/explosion eliminated that site.  Pantry and front main closet space is too valuable for those spaces.  That's how I got to the front dinette storage space concept for the DC - DC unit.  

I had forgotten about Overland's solution.  If I recall he just took the miscellaneous feeds from the batteries, over to the + and - Buss Bars.  Good suggestion reminder - 🙂

Appreciate the thoughts.

GJ

[John E Davies]

Have you researched the installation instructions for the Victron charger? I did, and that is (one reason) why I chose the Redarc. The Victron must be mounted vertically with at least 10 cm clearance top and bottom, that is difficult to do under the seats. I do not know the height of that particular unit, but my Victron 35 amp solar MPPT charger fits that way, but is not ideal, but it also sits right on top of a four inch diameter vent hole…..

https://olivertraveltrailers.com/forums/topic/5329-how-to-victron-mppt-solar-charge-controller-underneath-the-street-side-bed/

My Redarc is horizontally mounted on top of an aluminum plate with big holes in it.

Then there is the wire needed, the Victron needs 6AWG from truck battery to Ollie battery, so you must run all new wires. If you are going to all that trouble, you might as well make them even bigger and put in a higher amperage unit of some kind. Why stop at 30 amps? I picked the Redarc 11A unit because it is the biggest output I could find that did not require stringing new heavy cables all over the place; however one of my Ollie wires was actually undersized, and I had to replace that section. 

I suggest that you study the Redarc offerings, they have a 50 amp dual input one that ALSO functions as a solar MPPT controller. It is very robust and can be mounted in any position, anywhere, even underneath the frame (with waterproof butt splices). BUT you must run suitable heavy gauge cables everywhere, that unit requires 4AWG, and use a suitable Anderson 75 amp or bigger double Powerpole connector at the bumper.. https://redarcelectronics.com/products/dual-input-50a-in-vehicle-dc-battery-charger

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2204/8993/files/BCDC1250D_Instruction_Manual.pdf?529

https://redarcelectronics.com/collections/in-vehicle-dual-battery-chargers

But mounting it outside the hull would completely solve your heat gain worries, especially when charging off the truck when natural wind flow would be excellent. I do think the battery box needs better venting, it should be wide open to the interior, and the door should be sealed and insulated. I addressed this in this thread. 

https://olivertraveltrailers.com/forums/topic/5301-how-to-lithium-battery-powered-vent-system/

It has been working great, and the battery temps have been remarkably close to inside temps. BUT i only have the standard 45 amp PD charger, and an 11 amp output Redarc one under the rear bed. I think it would handle the extra heat load of bigger units, but that is guessing. The big downside of a higher amp DC to DC charger is that if you sell or wreck the TV, or sell the Ollie, you or the new owner will have to do that part all over again. With the 11 amp Redarc, everything is in the trailer, the only caveat being a smart alternator TV requires you to run a very small gauge voltage sense wire up to the TV battery.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[John E Davies]

Forgot this, you should research your F150 charge wire size and amp (fuse) capacities. They are likely pretty decent, but most likely nowhere close to 4 AWG.  My LC200 has a 40 amp fuse in that circuit, I don’t know the gauge. I bet it is no bigger than 10 AWG.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[CnC]

Having done and re-done lithium systems, I am partial to Battleborn, their 10 year guarantee and their corporate ethics.  Whenever possible, I like to stay with the same components and I'm partial to Victron equipment.  That being said, I agree without John that the DC to DC wire sizing needed from the TV alternator and onward to the Oli seems problematic. 

[John E Davies]

Poking around, with way too much free time on my hands. I found this statement about the current F150 EB:

”Ford changed the design. It's now only good for charging the small battery that enables your elec brakes in an emergency. It will no longer work your electric tongue jack or your RV's front jacks. Ford got rid of the relay and fuse that you had to add when you had to tow package and made it all electronic. It's also "smart" so if you don't hook up a trailer you won't even get any power to the Auxillary pin. Ford went to this new design in when the new design aluminum trucks arrived”

https://www.f150ecoboost.net/threads/trailer-charging-circuit-undersized-wire.61842/

That sounds insane to me, but I am sure some Ford owners here will either confirm or deny it. No relay! Shakes head….. 

John Davies

Spokane WA

[Geronimo John]

CnC and JD:

• I extensively researched many Lithiums, and as other Oliver owners, narrowed the field to BB's and Lithionics.  My factors in doing so were their USA mfg, warranty, reputation, reviews, quality and warranty considerations.  In a previous thread, when JD called to our attention that the  BB's were on sale ...at a great price... that pushed me over the line to purchase BB's. 

• My trailer electrical loads during travel are to resupply the power used by trailer brakes, DC refrigerator, and to recharge of lithiums for power used overnight.  These estimated suggested that for my use, a 30 amp DC to DC charger is optimal.  Anything larger would be unnecessary.  The 30 Amp Victron Orion cost me $220 with Military Discount and free shipping from BB.  The 25 amp Redarc lists as $389, and the 40 amp at $452.  +1 for VO. 

• As importantly, BB highly recommends the Victron gear.  For similar reasons, I chose the Victron 712 Smart and Victron Orion (VO)  12|12 - 30 DC to DC Charging System.  +1 for VO

• FULL DISCLOSURE:  I grease my Anderson Ball for friction reduction.  My rig is tongue heavy, and I have never experienced any trailer sway even under extreme crosswinds, grades and trucks blowing by out west.  My choice, but greasing the ball "could" be contributing to a restricted return ground path. 

• My F-150 Lariat, SCrew, 3.5 EB, FX4, MTTP comes with fuse #43 that is a 25 amp slotted M-Class fuse.  Unfortunately, when Ford went to the aluminum body, the wire size to the 7 pin was reduced.  Granted fuse #43 will protect the wire, but it's voltage drop is significant enough that I do not believe it could also feed a 30 amp load to the Lithiums.  

• I have noticed that during the past four seasons using L/A batteries, the 7-Pin trailer connection has significant heat generated discoloration for both the Charge Wire and Ground Wire connections.  (And yes I do use di-electric grease to control corrosion).  My opinion is that the existing Ford and Oliver electrical wires (Out and Back) are undersized.  As does several other Ford and Oliver owners.  

• Research into this lead me to use a "Non-Isolated" DC to DC which requires running both a + and  - cable to the trailer systems.  It's wiring diagram is slightly different than the one you posted.  Good news is it will also significantly improve the return ground path between TV and Ollie.  My measured distance for running these electrical home runs approaches 50 feet out and 50 feet back.  Although 6 AWG stranded copper could be used,  I, BatteryCables USA, and the Victron Forum felt that using the larger 4 AWG was the proper choice.  (Not to mention that's what Galway Girl determined as well.)   

• I think we can agree that all DC to DC chargers require careful attention as to how their "waste heat" is dissipated.  After all, this WAS the point of my creating this  thread.   For the VO at least I could find published specifications that quantified the input power and output power needs.  The difference between the two is waste heat that must be dealt with.  For the Redarc I was not able to locate such data.  My experience is that when a manufacture does not want such a comparison to be made, they don't provide the specification data to do so.  -1 for Redarc.

• Regardless, as a PE with extensive heat transfer professional experience, I prefer the fact that the VO is addressing the heat build up issue front on.  Large heat sinks and their optimal vertical placement of heat sink cooling fins for heat dissipation was noted.   +2 for VO.  However, as you indicated, this negatively impacts the number of suitable locations for installation.  So, - 1for VO.

• I am sure your hole in the plate is a good idea to help out the Redarc in this regard, but where are it's external heat sinks?  Or do they need a supplemental cooling fan or artificial airstream to keep their cool?  Not evident from what I can see from their limited pictures or descriptions that I could find.  -1 Redarc.

• In summary, I thought that since about the only time I will be using my VO will be when I am traveling, why not put it vertically in the front dinette under seat area.  With the cushion and hatch cover removed there appears to be space for heat flows up and out of the under-seat area without providing any additional heat to the OEM street-side bunk area.  So, maybe a +1 for Geronimo for creativity.

This effort has a nice but steep learning curve.  Getting my arms around it has been a fun challenge, but doing so would certainly not be possible without the expert inputs that you both, and others have and are providing.  They are much appreciated and I look forward to every response.       

GJ

[CnC]

BB's great, huh.  Since you know what you want to do, I'd suggest getting the 712 now so you can see and track your various loads - including that of the TV.  Let me know if you need pics of how I easily corrected the previous owner's lithium install on our LE2.

[geokeg]

This whole topic string is nuts to me.  Way too complex and busy for a trailer to take camping. All of this lithium battery re-engineering, rework, etc. seems expensive, tedious, and frought with risk.  It makes my Blue Sky system with AGM batteries, solar panel, and inverter seem simple in comparison.  It has been sitting outside here in the northwest for over 5 years and still operating just fine. I know I would not buy a used trailer that had been converted from AGM  to lithium after it left the factory.  Too risky.

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, geokeg said:

This whole topic string is nuts to me.  Way too complex and busy for a trailer to take camping. All of this lithium battery re-engineering, rework, etc. seems expensive, tedious, and frought with risk.  It makes my Blue Sky system with AGM batteries, solar panel, and inverter seem simple in comparison.  It has been sitting outside here in the northwest for over 5 years and still operating just fine. I know I would not buy a used trailer that had been converted from AGM  to lithium after it left the factory.  Too risky.

Not sure I understand.  I have a Blue Sky solar controller.  Last January I replaced my 4 AGM’s with two Battle Born Lithiums.  I did 10 minutes of reprogramming of the Blue Sky and swapped out the 6 year old PD 4045 with a new one that is lithium capable.  Done.  The system has performed great during several months of camping.  If I ever decide to sell, someone will be getting a great set up.  No risk.  Mike

[Paul and Santina]

@Mike and Carol Does your TV charge your Li batteries when towing?

[Mike and Carol]

9 hours ago, Paul and Santina said:

@Mike and Carol Does your TV charge your Li batteries when towing?

Good question.  I am assuming that since I was charging the AGMs that the lithiums are getting some charge as we travel.  I know whenever we arrive at a site we’re at or near 100% charge but that is probably largely due to the solar panels.  I didn’t change anything that might affect TV charging.  Mike

[rideandfly]

BattleBorn told me not to worry about TV alternator damage when connected to TV with 7 pin plug with Ollie's single 100AH BB lithium. They said because of charge cable's small diameter and distance from TV to battery,  would not see very high amperage charge with TV connected. So far with BattleBorn battery at 75% charge while connected to TV with engine idling have not seen more than 3.5 amps of charge. Our TV has 180 amp alternator and with ignition turned off, the 12V power supply to Ollie is also switched off.

[CnC]

Hard to get 100 gallons a minute through a half inch hose.  There's an old adage that electricity flows like water 😏

[rideandfly]

10 hours ago, CnC said:

Hard to get 100 gallons a minute through a half inch hose.  There's an old adage that electricity flows like water 😏

Agree!

The following Victron alternator test video (posted previously by another member here) damaged the first alternator tested at 1500RPM. Victron probably had a shorter & larger diameter charging cable, compared to my Tow Vehicles increased length & reduced diameter charging wire to the 7 pin connector.

After seeing the following Victron video, I called BattleBorn for advice for my single 100AH BB battery installation. Have not had charging issues with our TV alternator or discharging TV battery with the ignition switched 7 pin on/off charge wire to Ollie. 

I would call the battery manufacturer for installation advice for larger battery banks. 

 

[dewdev]

I am  just strating to research upgrading from AGM's to Lithiums batteries and have been following the various forum posts the last few months.

Question: Is it necessary when making the LItuium upgrade, to install a new DC to DC charger if you are not depending on the TV to be charging the lithiums while traveling? 

[Fritz]

Not at all, IMO.  The only benefit of the DC to DC charger is if you want to charge your lithium batteries using your TV while driving.   Without DC to DC charging, the batteries will charge with solar (if you have that option) while you are driving or parked (as long as there is sun), or with shore power at night.

Not sure about other lithium batteries, but the Lithionics batteries want to be fully charged (to 14.4 V) at least once every two weeks.  There are at least 3 ways of doing this: (1) plug into shore power (or perhaps a generator), (2) use DC to DC charger while driving, or (3) have an MPPT solar controller that allows the batteries to reach 14.4 volts from solar (Oliver currently installs a PWM controller, which charges the batteries, but not to 14.4 volts).  So whether or not to use a DC to DC charger might depend your battery requirements and on the way you intend to use your system.   With batteries like the Lithionics, extensive boondocking (i.e., no shore power) and avoiding a generator steers you to either option 2 or 3.

[Hokieman]

17 hours ago, Fritz said:

(Oliver currently installs a PWM controller, which charges the batteries, but not to 14.4 volts).

This may have been correct for older Zamp solar controllers in our trailers, but if I am not mistaken the current Zamp ZS30A PWM controller charges to 14.4V in Absorption mode, 13.6v in Float.  That’s the way I interpret the specs (link below), someone please let me know if I have misunderstood these important details.    Converting from PWM to an MPPT is a worthwhile modification, and it’s on my future mods list.   In my case, the Zamp PWM is working fine for us with  2 Battleborn 100A LiFePO4.   I don’t want to change it out now because of the cutout hole in the wall panel.   I’m hoping Zamp will offer an MPPT in a year or so that will be a panel mount and can fill that hole in the wall.  By the way, Battleborn recommends charging their batteries up  to 14.4V periodically for optimum performance, so they seem to be similar to Lithionics in their protocol.

https://olivertraveltrailers.com/wp-content/uploads/oliver-university/Component_Manuals/Solar/Zamp_Charge_Controller_Manual-revised.pdf

[Geronimo John]

 

On 11/12/2021 at 9:07 AM, CnC said:

BB's great, huh.  Since you know what you want to do, I'd suggest getting the 712 now so you can see and track your various loads - including that of the TV.  Let me know if you need pics of how I easily corrected the previous owner's lithium install on our LE2.

Would love to see your fix for the 712 bad install. 

 

[Fritz]

7 hours ago, Mike D. said:

This may have been correct for older Zamp solar controllers in our trailers, but if I am not mistaken the current Zamp ZS30A PWM controller charges to 14.4V in Absorption mode, 13.6v in Float.  That’s the way I interpret the specs (link below), someone please let me know if I have misunderstood these important details.  

Thank you very much for correcting this.  I agree with after looking at the manual, and just to be sure, I verified with Zamp that the ZS30A PWM controller goes to 14.4V in absorption mode before returning to 13.6V in float.  It does.  So a full solar charge should serve to calibrate the batteries' BMS, resulting in a more reliable SOC.

So then, if I understand correctly (which clearly is not always the case), the reason to install a PMMT controller is for a bit greater efficiency, which becomes more important for larger solar arrays.  I also asked whether Zamp would be building one, and the rep said there had been discussion about this some time ago but he hadn't heard anything recently.

 

 

 

[SeaDawg]

The gains on an mppt controller  vs pwm are somewhat minimal, on small solar arrays, like most olivers. 

There's been a lot of hand wringing on this in the past few years. Yes, you'll get a bit more. Is it worth the work and expense? Maybe. It really depends on personal camping style and needs.

I suspect that for most people, the plug and play simplicity of the zamp systems is worth the bit of loss.

Many, many new owners come from tent camping, or analog systems, or zero camping experience. For all of them, I'd say zamp is pretty much a great fit.  For the experienced and more needy techies, victron or even blue sky may offer more flexibility,  and some small gains. 

Even blue sky, with their great customer service, is far more complicated in changing settings. Victron could easily overwhelm new users. We have experience with both, btw. 

[Hokieman]

3 hours ago, Fritz said:

and just to be sure, I verified with Zamp that the ZS30A PWM controller goes to 14.4V in absorption mode before returning to 13.6V in float.  It does.

Thank YOU for confirming  with Zamp!  I wasn’t 100% sure I was reading those specs correctly.    That’s good info for anyone looking to do a simple swap out of their older conventional batteries for lithium.