More air flow in bathroom

[CnC]

16 hours ago, JEssary said:

I requested that

Jason said:  "I requested that"... and told us why.

It's nice to know that the Oliver staff pays attention to us!

THANK YOU!

Charlie

[Rivernerd]

On 1/23/2023 at 4:07 PM, JEssary said:

The return air vents is something that can be easily added on older models if you choose to. 

Although we have a Truma Varioheat furnace with a return air vent in the bathroom, I chose to add a 4" round return air vent on the aisle side of the front dinette seat.  See photo below.

I did this in the hope it will further improve circulation of warm air through the areas under the floor, to help keep water tanks and pipes from freezing when camping in really cold temps.  I chose this location because it is about as far away from the two main cabin supply vents as possible, yet close to the floor where return heat vents should  be.  I am advised that maximum separation between supply vents and return air vents provides the most balanced air circulation.

These Valterra A10-3345VP 4" vents are available here:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07D2Z8HBV?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

They are installed using a 4" hole saw.  The vents have large bumps on each side which should be filed down to fit through the 4" round hole.  They come with two attachment screws that fit in recessed holes on the side flanges, for which you should pre-drill with a 7/64"  bit.  The drilling makes quite a mess, so you will need  a good vacuum.

The forecast is for temps around 0F here the nights of Sunday January 29 and Monday the 30th, so I plan to fire up the furnace one of those nights and monitor temps to verify what, if any, impact this additional return air vent has on below-the-floor conditions.

On 1/23/2023 at 4:07 PM, JEssary said:

They are still working on getting [vents] placed in the closet which should be one on the top & one on the bottom for better air circulation through that area.

While I had my 4" hole saw chucked into a cordless drill, I opted to add two 4" vents to the closet, one high and one low, as Jason recommended. See photo below.

I also plan to monitor the impact of these return air vents on closet temps.  When camping on our way back to Idaho from Hohenwald in some very cold ambient conditions in November, the closet remained quite cold, even when the main cabin was heated up to around 70 F.  I expect the effect of these new return air vents will be temps much closer to those in the main cabin.

 I will report the results of my temperature monitoring next week.

[hgreen]

Out of curiosity, where is the return air vent in the bathroom located on the new 2023 Elite II?

[Rivernerd]

1 hour ago, hgreen said:

Out of curiosity, where is the return air vent in the bathroom located on the new 2023 Elite II?

Low on the wall between the toilet and the dinette.  The photo below was shot looking down.  The toilet is visible on the right side of the frame.

 

That return air vent allows airflow into the area under the forward dinette seat, which connects to the under-floor area..

Data gathered during our return trip from Hohenwald to Idaho last November indicated that this 2" vent made a notable difference in below-floor temps on cold nights in the single digits and teens, F.  Based on those observations, if one had not been installed in our Hull #1291, I would install one. 

 

[hgreen]

Thank you.  

[Rivernerd]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:24 PM, Rivernerd said:

 I will report the results of my temperature monitoring next week.

The overnight low last night here in central Idaho got down below 0 F.  So today, I took advantage of the cold temps to test the performance of the Varioheat furnace system, with the additional return air vents I added on the aisle side of the front dinette seat and the closet last week  The results? 

First, the good news:  The closet and the area under the front dinette seat were significantly better warmed by the Varioheat furnace.  With cabin temp at 62 F, the area under the front dinette seat was 6 degrees warmer than before the addition of that return air vent (an increase from 38 to 44 F).  The closet improved even more, a total of 10 degrees (from 44 to 54 F).

Now the bad news:  My hopes that the increased airflow overall would also result in significantly warmer temps in the vulnerable area on the street side by the external shower controls, were not realized.  The temps in that rear area of the trailer stayed above freezing once cabin temps got above 60 F, but only 2 degrees higher than before adding the new return air vents (40 F now vs. 38 before).  Thus, there was some measurable improvement, and maybe enough to keep tanks and pipes from freezing when ambient temps are in the single digits, but not as much as I was hoping for.

Conclusion:  Installation of the new return air vents in the front of the cabin and the closet significantly improved the ability of the furnace to warm those areas.  But, that installation only marginally improved warming of the sensitive rear underbelly area of the trailer--maybe enough to keep that area from freezing down to single-digit ambient temps, but likely not below 0 F.

[GAP]

17 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

The overnight low last night here in central Idaho got down below 0 F.  So today, I took advantage of the cold temps to test the performance of the Varioheat furnace system, with the additional return air vents I added on the aisle side of the front dinette seat and the closet last week  The results? 

First, the good news:  The closet and the area under the front dinette seat were significantly better warmed by the Varioheat furnace.  With cabin temp at 62 F, the area under the front dinette seat was 6 degrees warmer than before the addition of that return air vent (an increase from 38 to 44 F).  The closet improved even more, a total of 10 degrees (from 44 to 54 F).

Now the bad news:  My hopes that the increased airflow overall would also result in significantly warmer temps in the vulnerable area on the street side by the external shower controls, were not realized.  The temps in that rear area of the trailer stayed above freezing once cabin temps got above 60 F, but only 2 degrees higher than before adding the new return air vents (40 F now vs. 38 before).  Thus, there was some measurable improvement, and maybe enough to keep tanks and pipes from freezing when ambient temps are in the single digits, but not as much as I was hoping for.

Conclusion:  Installation of the new return air vents in the front of the cabin and the closet significantly improved the ability of the furnace to warm those areas.  But, that installation only marginally improved warming of the sensitive rear underbelly area of the trailer--maybe enough to keep that area from freezing down to single-digit ambient temps, but likely not below 0 F.

Rivernerd,

From my mad scientist experimentation, there are four things you can do to improve this situation.

1). The column of the leveling jack and, most especially, the metal flange the column is attached to, makes for a great cold radiator.  some creative work with reflectix and silver tape would go a long way

2). unscrew the ext shower head, bring that line into the compartment and reattach the head.  Pull the hot and cold knobs.  Now there is enough room to add a block of closed cell foam under the little door to the ext shower compartment

3). cut two layers of reflectix material to cover the entire exterior access door.  Cut to fit around the latch but wide enough so it gets pinched by the rubber door gasket to make a seal.  Adjust the latch enough so it squeezes the reflectix to close gaps but not so much that the hinges to the door are straining when door is closed.

4). add a small return vent under that bed.  Mabey do this last to see if required as it's the most invasive.

I went entirely overboard there and replaced the most rearward heat vent on the curbside, snaked under the floor, pst the inverter and fed out to the isle across from the existing galley heat vent.  Had to insulate the hose from existing electronics.  It works great and certainly heats the battery compartment but bet if I had started with the points above, would not have been necessary.

Hope this helps.

[John E Davies]

13 minutes ago, GAP said:

 

1). The column of the leveling jack and, most especially, the metal flange the column is attached to, makes for a great cold radiator.  some creative work with reflectix and silver tape would go a long way

That is a great idea, but be sure to leave access to the four big bolts on that flange, so that they can be retorqued routinely. They DO loosen over time. Some sort of “hat” with foamed insulation inside it might be possible, as long as it is easily removable. For example cover the flange with plastic wrap.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[GAP]

20 hours ago, John E Davies said:

That is a great idea, but be sure to leave access to the four big bolts on that flange, so that they can be retorqued routinely. They DO loosen over time. Some sort of “hat” with foamed insulation inside it might be possible, as long as it is easily removable. For example cover the flange with plastic wrap.

John Davies

Spokane WA

As always John, you bring up a great point.  Do you have any idea what the torque on those bolts should be?  I've never checked them.

[John E Davies]

55 minutes ago, GAP said:

As always John, you bring up a great point.  Do you have any idea what the torque on those bolts should be?  I've never checked them.

Thanks, this was discussed a while back, 43 ft lbs.

https://olivertraveltrailers.com/forums/topic/6812-check-your-rear-jack-mount-hardware-bottom-frame-bolts-were-1-turn-loose/

John Davies

Spokane WA

[rich.dev]

On 1/26/2023 at 11:24 PM, Rivernerd said:

While I had my 4" hole saw chucked into a cordless drill, I opted to add two 4" vents to the closet, one high and one low, as Jason recommended.

Our 2023 came with these vents, shows you Oliver listen to their customers! 😊
 

[Steve Morris]

18 hours ago, rich.dev said:

Our 2023 came with these vents

Interesting! I saw those in a previous photo and thought you'd added them yourself. They were not in our 2023, delivered the end of March. So that practice started somewhere in the 26 trailers built after ours.

It's been on my list of things to modify.

[rich.dev]

On 1/30/2023 at 7:15 PM, Rivernerd said:

Now the bad news:  My hopes that the increased airflow overall would also result in significantly warmer temps in the vulnerable area on the street side by the external shower controls, were not realized.  The temps in that rear area of the trailer stayed above freezing once cabin temps got above 60 F, but only 2 degrees higher than before adding the new return air vents (40 F now vs. 38 before).  Thus, there was some measurable improvement, and maybe enough to keep tanks and pipes from freezing when ambient temps are in the single digits, but not as much as I was hoping for.

Since you added a 4" round return air vent on the aisle side of the front dinette seat, did you also leave the existing stock return vent open? 

[Rivernerd]

1 hour ago, rich.dev said:

Since you added a 4" round return air vent on the aisle side of the front dinette seat, did you also leave the existing stock return vent open? 

Yes.

[rich.dev]

30 minutes ago, Rivernerd said:

Yes.

Everything mentioned by @GAP and @John E Davies are good points, also closing off that stock vent should draw more "warmer" return cabin air from your 4" vent through the street side basement area. Now that its cooling down maybe you can run your test again by closing off that existing return vent?   

[Rivernerd]

19 minutes ago, rich.dev said:

also closing off that stock vent should draw more "warmer" return cabin air from your 4" vent through the street side basement area. Now that its cooling down maybe you can run your test again by closing off that existing return vent? 

I don't plan to close off the main return air grill under the street side bed, because it serves two important functions in that location:  (1) avoiding creation of low pressure in the area around the furnace, and (2) providing a supply of free-flowing air to the furnace intake.

1.     Creating Low Pressure Around the Furnace

A couple years ago, John Davies noted: 

"But if you relocate the furnace grill to the far side of the cabin,  you are essentially creating a slight vacuum under the floor with the furnace fan, so air is going to be pulled inside through those [scupper] holes [in the bottom of the hull].  A little air infiltration isn’t bad, but on a really frigid day it will also suck in trickles of freezing cold outside air right where you don’t want it, under the tanks and plumbing.  With the existing location there is no suction created under the floor, instead the cabin air enters directly.  So maybe [the Oliver engineers] really did choose this spot for a good reason."

See this thread:

2.     Providing Free-Flowing Air Supply to the Furnace.

I tried installing a homemade furnace filter over the air intake of our Truma Varioheat furnace a few months ago.   The furnace began throwing error codes, I suspect because it sensed that the supply air intake was partially blocked by the filter.  Removing the filter solved the problem.  That furnace air intake sits directly behind that return air vent. It appears to me that the Varioheat furnace is designed to have the large, free-flowing air supply provided by that return vent directly in front of the air intake. 

I do not plan to block it.

[Ronbrink]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:52 AM, GAP said:

 

[Jason Foster]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:07 PM, JEssary said:

I requested that production swap the furnace & water heater locations because the furnace ducting was running right over the top of the water heater bypass valve. This made locating the valve difficult for new owners as well as having to move the duct aside with the potential to tear it. Hopefully this change has made it better for access and does not cause any issues. 

I can confirm that in my 24, however, looking at the Truma makes me wonder why it wasn't mounted 90 degrees since the current orientation causes a substantial kink in the air ducts.  However, that would compromise the mounting on top the wheel well.  Although I don't really see a problem with that.

   

Return vents:  

Bathroom

Closet upper and lower venting

On 1/23/2023 at 7:51 PM, Mainiac said:

The vents in the closet, will it be vented to the bath or the main cabin? The main purpose of venting the closet? Is it to warm it up in there? To change the air is a commendable goal, just have never heard any one say that to vent that space would be nice. Is it thought to accomplish this, with one high and one low, by using the thermo siphon principle? Or to take advantage of the forced air from the bathroom heat duct?

I would love to see a small waste basket installed half in/half out of the closet door. That would make it accessible from both inside and outside. Maybe the vent could be combined with this goal?

As seen in the pictures, they installed one above and below.  However, it stays cold in there so without possative airflow using a fan, it is just dead space.  I think a small DC power fan mounted on one of these vents would make a big difference, though I'm not sure if it is needed since there are no water lines in there.  

 

[Jason Foster]

On 10/13/2023 at 2:34 PM, Rivernerd said:

I don't plan to close off the main return air grill under the street side bed, because it serves two important functions in that location:  (1) avoiding creation of low pressure

I tried installing a homemade furnace filter over the air intake of our Truma Varioheat furnace a few months ago.   The furnace began throwing error codes, I suspect because it sensed that the supply air intake was partially blocked by the filter.  Removing the filter solved the problem.  That furnace air intake sits directly behind that return air vent. It appears to me that the Varioheat furnace is designed to have the large, free-flowing air supply provided by that return vent directly in front of the air intake. 

I do not plan to block it.

Since the vent is directly below the bedding and just above where my dog sleeps, I plan to install a thin filter on the back side of that main cabin intake vent.  I'm not really concerned about the air circulating in the basement, so I won't mount anything on the Truma.  

Something like this would be able to stop hair and lint but still allow adequate airflow:  Amazon.com: Replacement Air Conditioner Foam Filters Compatible with Frost King Model F1524 and 471002-15 x 24 x 3/16 in. - 2 Pack : Home & Kitchen

[AlbertNTerri]

Looking through this entire post again, I'm now planning on adding the 2" vent to the bath/dinette wall and upper/lower vents to the closet.

 

Anyone have thoughts on adding a vent going through the wall that is under the street-side bed area so air can circulate from the area near the exterior shower region to the floor of the main cabin, directly across from the large return air duct to the furnace that's on the curb side? I'm thinking that with the added 2" bath to dinette vent, the warmed air from the bath would be able to circulate under the street side of the cabin, under the battery box and then be pulled back to the furnace without causing a loss of airflow to the furnace. Am I over thinking this??

albert

[Jason Foster]

5 hours ago, AlbertNTerri said:

Anyone have thoughts on adding a vent going through the wall that is under the street-side bed area so air can circulate from the area near the exterior shower region to the floor of the main cabin, directly across from the large return air duct to the furnace that's on the curb side? I'm thinking that with the added 2" bath to dinette vent, the warmed air from the bath would be able to circulate under the street side of the cabin, under the battery box and then be pulled back to the furnace without causing a loss of airflow to the furnace. Am I over thinking this??

albert

Air would pull from an area with least resistance, if you were to add vents closer to the heater, it might reduce the effectiveness of vents near the bathroom causing dead spots. This just my opinion though. 

[dewdev]

11 hours ago, Jason Foster said:

I can confirm that in my 24, however, looking at the Truma makes me wonder why it wasn't mounted 90 degrees since the current orientation causes a substantial kink in the air ducts.  However, that would compromise the mounting on top the wheel well.  Although I don't really see a problem with that.

   

Return vents:  

Bathroom

Closet upper and lower venting

As seen in the pictures, they installed one above and below.  However, it stays cold in there so without possative airflow using a fan, it is just dead space.  I think a small DC power fan mounted on one of these vents would make a big difference, though I'm not sure if it is needed since there are no water lines in there.  

 

Jason:

It look like the Oliver installed vent in the bathroom is smaller than the ones in the closet wall. What size is the bathroom vent?

[Rivernerd]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:56 AM, dewdev said:

It look like the Oliver installed vent in the bathroom is smaller than the ones in the closet wall. What size is the bathroom vent?

2".  I expect that is what Oliver had in stock, as it is the same size as the supply air vents.  One could easily substitute a 4" Valterra vent for even better air flow.

EDIT 3/9/254:  2" is incorrect.  The Oliver installed vents are 3".  My bad!

Edited March 9 by Rivernerd

[Rivernerd]

6 hours ago, AlbertNTerri said:

Anyone have thoughts on adding a vent going through the wall that is under the street-side bed area so air can circulate from the area near the exterior shower region to the floor of the main cabin, directly across from the large return air duct to the furnace that's on the curb side? I

See my post dated January 26, 2023 above.  I would add a vent under the forward dinette seat, not one in the aft section across from the main return air vent.  The forward vent encourages air flow throughout the cabin area, whereas an additional aft return air vent would short-circuit air flow, limiting it more to the aft part of the trailer.

[GAP]

14 hours ago, Jason Foster said:

I can confirm that in my 24, however, looking at the Truma makes me wonder why it wasn't mounted 90 degrees since the current orientation causes a substantial kink in the air ducts.  However, that would compromise the mounting on top the wheel well.  Although I don't really see a problem with that.

   

Return vents:  

Bathroom

Closet upper and lower venting

As seen in the pictures, they installed one above and below.  However, it stays cold in there so without possative airflow using a fan, it is just dead space.  I think a small DC power fan mounted on one of these vents would make a big difference, though I'm not sure if it is needed since there are no water lines in there.  

 

I cut a 4" vent from the back of the closet into the vanity in the bathroom.  In my case, also added a 4" adjustsble vent in the door which is pretty much the equivalent as the vents now added standard by Oliver.  After this mod, when the heater kicked on, I noticed that warm air from the cabin would get drawn through the closet.  No more frost and condensation on the rear wall and clothes dried much better.  Still would prop the door open if I had to dry things quickly.