2023 LE II Trailer Weight (Dry), all Oliver options, empty

[ScubaRx]

4 hours ago, Patriot said:

 

 

But then there's Gerrold's Laws of Infernal Dynamics:

1. An object in motion will always be headed in the wrong direction.
2. An object at rest will always be in the wrong place.
3. The energy required to change either one of these states will always be more than you wish to expend, but never so much as to make the task totally impossible.

[Frank C]

18 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

Truthfully, according to Newton’s first law of motion, once a mass is in motion, it maintains the same motion unless acted on by force. In other words, after you've gotten the full fresh tank up to speed (using a force from the truck's engine) it does not require any additional force to keep it moving at the same speed.

Hi Steve, that’s a very loose interpretation of Newton's law.   And that example of the extra weight of full tanks only applies in an ideal world with frictionless surfaces.  Frictional forces must always be taken into account in the balance of forces with Newton's laws.   In that cartoon illustration, the frictional force of the crate sliding on the floor must be accounted for.  The crate won't keep sliding on its own.  You have to keep pushing, even to maintain a constant speed.  And the heavier the crate, the harder you have to push to maintain a constant speed, because the frictional force increases in direct proportion to the weight.  

In the real world, every extra bit of mass in the trailer and tow vehicle absolutely will require additional energy to move, even at a constant speed on a level road, for several reasons:

-Rolling resistance of the tires increases as the downward loading on the tires increases.

-Wheel bearing friction, etc. all increase as well as the mass increases.

-Even when towing at a constant speed on a level road, a change in direction (making a turn) is a change in velocity vector (which is still an acceleration) that requires more energy as the mass increases.

And of course we don’t drive indefinitely on level roads at a constant speed.  There are hills, stop lights, etc. that constantly require acceleration, so more mass means more energy needed. 

[Patriot]

What about Murphy’s Law? 😂

[Frank C]

3 minutes ago, Patriot said:

What about Murphy’s Law? 😂

Murphy’s Law always applies! 🙂

[Geronimo John]

14 hours ago, JDAstroPhoto said:

Yes, I actually already have a newer SUV 1/2 ton with the tow package.  The numbers actually work, but they are close to the edge and I am not really that comfortable with them.

Amen.  Good for you!.  If you are not comfortable with your existing TV and how it would perform for your camping needs, then by all means look to the heavier and more capable trucks.  Just be aware that IF your TV is also your daily driver then there are down sides that come into play.  Some of them are:

• They do not handle as well. 
• The ride quality for daily driving certainly is not as good. 
• The MPG for daily and in most cases towing is not as good. 
• The cost to buy, operate, maintain, and repair are certainly more expensive.
• The fun factor to drive is not as good.
• Finding a place to park is harder. 

As said before, by all means buy what YOU need.  

[Patriot]

3 hours ago, Frank C said:

Murphy’s Law always applies! 🙂

It sure does. 😎

[ScubaRx]

1 hour ago, Geronimo John said:

Amen.  Good for you!.  If you are not comfortable with your existing TV and how it would perform for your camping needs, then by all means look to the heavier and more capable trucks.  Just be aware that IF your TV is also your daily driver then there are down sides that come into play.  Some of them are:

• They do not handle as well. 
• The ride quality for daily driving certainly is not as good. 
• The MPG for daily and in most cases towing is not as good. 
• The cost to buy, operate, maintain, and repair are certainly more expensive.
• The fun factor to drive is not as good.
• Finding a place to park is harder. 

As said before, by all means buy what YOU need.  

Since acquiring our Hull # 050 in 2014, we have used three different tow vehicles. A 1500 gas pickup, a 2500 diesel pickup and now a 3500 diesel pickup, it being perfect for the way what we want to travel. 
 

I really can’t tell any ride quality or handling issues between the three trucks.

The fuel mileage is much better with the diesels as opposed to the gas burner.
 

Everything about a diesel costs more.  
 

For myself, I absolutely love driving one of the largest personal vehicles on the road and over the past 50 or more years I’ve always parked at the furthest side of the lot so parking space has never been an issue. 
 

 

[ScubaRx]

6 hours ago, Frank C said:

Hi Steve, that’s a very loose interpretation of Newton's law.   And that example of the extra weight of full tanks only applies in an ideal world with frictionless surfaces.  Frictional forces must always be taken into account in the balance of forces with Newton's laws.   In that cartoon illustration, the frictional force of the crate sliding on the floor must be accounted for.  The crate won't keep sliding on its own.  You have to keep pushing, even to maintain a constant speed.  And the heavier the crate, the harder you have to push to maintain a constant speed, because of friction.

In the real world, every extra bit of mass in the trailer and tow vehicle absolutely will require additional energy to move, even at a constant speed on a level road, for several reasons:

-Rolling resistance of the tires increases as the downward loading on the tires increases.

-Wheel bearing friction, etc. all increase as well as the mass increases.

-Even when towing at a constant speed on a level road, a change in direction (making a turn) is a change in velocity vector (which is still an acceleration) that requires more energy as the mass increases.

And of course we don’t drive indefinitely on level roads at a constant speed.  There are hills, stop lights, etc. that constantly require acceleration, so more mass means more energy needed. 

You are correct, of course, that my application of Newton’s laws is rather simplistic and for it to be realistic, it would probably need to executed in a vacuum using wet ice sliding on wet ice at a constant temperature. 
 

My singular intention was to try to dispel the constant fear that carrying a full tank of water will significantly affect your fuel mileage. 
 

My real world experience is that I’ve never been able to tell a difference. 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, ScubaRx said:

My singular intention was to try to dispel the constant fear that carrying a full tank of water will significantly affect your fuel mileage. 
 

My real world experience is that I’ve never been able to tell a difference. 

I agree. I have ever noticed a difference. I prefer to fill up at home and have less to do later in the road. In fact, we just walked back in from the garage, after filling our tanks, including the extra 15 gallons in the back of our truck bed.

Kirk

[Frank C]

1 hour ago, ScubaRx said:

You are correct, of course, that my application of Newton’s laws is rather simplistic and for it to be realistic, it would probably need to executed in a vacuum using wet ice sliding on wet ice at a constant temperature. 
 

My singular intention was to try to dispel the constant fear that carrying a full tank of water will significantly affect your fuel mileage. 
 

My real world experience is that I’ve never been able to tell a difference. 

We always travel with a full fresh tank as well, so we have water for rest stops on the road, and also to be prepared if the destination campground has water quality or availability problems.  I like being prepared, and a well stocked Ollie can provide shelter, food and water for an extended time.  

[ScubaRx]

53 minutes ago, Frank C said:

...I like being prepared, and a well stocked Ollie can provide shelter, food and water for an extended time.  

And it doesn't get any better than that!

[Geronimo John]

We run with full fresh and empty gray/black whenever possible.  Having a full tank of water we KNOW is good is just smart planning.  It eliminates both health concerns and concerns with some ultra hard water scaling issues that more than a few camp grounds provide.    

[ScubaRx]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:22 AM, Ollie-Haus said:

…For what it's worth BTW, it was explained to us on our last plant tour that Oliver is building the LE2 now with the same 5K axles as the LE1 uses. This is for cost and logistics/supplier streamlining. The LE2 still has the same load sticker on the side, but you do have increased actual axle capacity with two 5K axles under the trailer. Just a more robust and heavier undercarriage in this configuration. This works well with my thinking of having more than we need. Many RVs are built to be at axle capacity with full holding tanks and almost no margin for gear at all. Oliver is not doing this to say the least.  

You are correct that all delivered new Legacy Elite II’s will come with a pair of the same 5200 pound axles that have been supplied on the Elite’s since 2008 and for the reasons you stated. 
 

However, the same four leaf spring pack that has always been used with the 3500 pound axles is being retained rather than using the five leaf spring pack that is normally used for the 5200 pounders. Their reasoning behind this is that it gives the trailers a softer ride. Effectively, this means the new LEII’s will still have a GVWR of 7000 pounds since that rating is determined by the measurement of the weakest link in the suspension system. 

[CRM]

3 minutes ago, ScubaRx said:

However, the same four leaf spring pack that has always been used with the 3500 pound axles is being retained rather than using the five leaf spring pack that is normally used for the 5200 pounders. Their reasoning behind this is that it gives the trailers a softer ride. Effectively this means the new LEII’s will still have a GVWR of 7000 pounds since that rating is determined by the measurement of the weakest link in the suspension system. 

Thanks for this info. I have the 5200's and have wondered why it was still rated for 7000lbs. 

[Ollie-Haus]

19 minutes ago, ScubaRx said:

You are correct that all delivered new Legacy Elite II’s will come with a pair of the same 5200 pound axles that have been supplied on the Elite’s since 2008 and for the reasons you stated. 
 

However, the same four leaf spring pack that has always been used with the 3500 pound axles is being retained rather than using the five leaf spring pack that is normally used for the 5200 pounders. Their reasoning behind this is that it gives the trailers a softer ride. Effectively, this means the new LEII’s will still have a GVWR of 7000 pounds since that rating is determined by the measurement of the weakest link in the suspension system. 

That is correct. I'm guessing if they put the heavier springs on the LE2 it would ride like a log wagon to the detriment of everything on board. I did say "but you do have increased actual axle capacity", not increased trailer load capacity.  You do get the benefit of more brake capacity and heavier bearings, so there are performance gains with the same ride quality for the trailer. I mentioned this in the context of the OP's questions about the newer LE2's having increased dry weight over older models. This is why I emphasized the heavier undercarriage, which of course is because of the heavier axles. I didn't do a very good job of articulating my point. 

[ScubaRx]

29 minutes ago, Ollie-Haus said:

...I'm guessing if they put the heavier springs on the LE2 it would ride like a log wagon to the detriment of everything on board...

I specified the 5200 pound axles during the 2013-14 build of Hull #050 because Jim Oliver told me to. They came with the 5 leaf spring pack which fully rated them to carry 5200 pounds. We've towed it about 100K miles over the past 10 years, been to every state including Alaska. I've never had anything to break, drawers to open during travel or cabinet doors that won't stay closed. Virtually 100% of those miles have the tires at 80psi (which I don't think is a good idea, despite it still being recommended until recently). The easiest way to soften the ride is to lower the tire pressure. We now run about 60psi although tires are rated for 110psi.

[Ollie-Haus]

30 minutes ago, ScubaRx said:

I specified the 5200 pound axles during the 2013-14 build of Hull #050 because Jim Oliver told me to. They came with the 5 leaf spring pack which fully rated them to carry 5200 pounds. We've towed it about 100K miles over the past 10 years, been to every state including Alaska. I've never had anything to break, drawers to open during travel or cabinet doors that won't stay closed. Virtually 100% of those miles have the tires at 80psi (which I don't think is a good idea, despite it still being recommended until recently). The easiest way to soften the ride is to lower the tire pressure. We now run about 60psi although tires are rated for 110psi.

Nice to know you have positive experience with the heavier spring pack. Makes it an option down the road. 

[rideandfly]

3 hours ago, Ollie-Haus said:

Nice to know you have positive experience with the heavier spring pack. Makes it an option down the road. 

We have 5200lb axles on #75 2015 LE2, running 50PSI in the tires since 2016 when we purchased Ollie used from the original owners. Same here, drawers stay closed, and no issues. Here's our Ollie's spring pack:

 

 

[Mike and Carol]

4 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

We run with full fresh and empty gray/black whenever possible.  Having a full tank of water we KNOW is good is just smart planning.  It eliminates both health concerns and concerns with some ultra hard water scaling issues that more than a few camp grounds provide.    

We leave home with a full fresh tank.  Other two empty.  Sometimes we’ll travel with a full fresh and nearly full black and gray.  If we’re leaving a campsite and there are folks at the dump station I’ll just keep on driving and dump when we arrive at our next campground later in the day, unless we’re going somewhere with no dump station or hookups, then I’ll get in line.  We also travel with a water softener….  Mike

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

We also travel with a water softener….  Mike

Mike,

I have interested in getting a water softener. Which one do you have, if you are satisfied with it? 
Thanks, 

Kirk 

[Mike and Carol]

5 minutes ago, snakeriveridaho said:

Mike,

I have interested in getting a water softener. Which one do you have, if you are satisfied with it? 
Thanks, 

Kirk 

Kirk, we’ve had two water softeners.  The first was an 8,000 grain unit that we used for a couple of years.  It was heavy and had to be carried in the truck.  It did do a good job.  I found a very small one, just 3,200 grain that would fit upright in the basement and was not heavy at all.  The big one is now used for truck/trailer washing and the small one goes with us camping.  You can see it on Amazon HERE.  It’s worked well for us.  Mike

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

You can see it on Amazon HERE.  It’s worked well for us.  Mike

Thanks Mike! I put it on my wish list.

Kirk

[mossemi]

15 hours ago, Geronimo John said:

Having a full tank of water we KNOW is good is just smart planning.

Planning is not my strong point so I’ll have to take your word on that!  I just take life one hill at a time.

Mossey

[SeaDawg]

Well,my usual advice is " love the one you own. "

Every vehicle we own is technically capable of towing our 2008 Elite I. Some, better than others. (With the exception of the 58 tr3)

It's easy to oversize. Easy to undersize, as well. 

The price of new vehicles today gives us all pause. And, worth a careful study. 

Most of us don't "need" a huge diesel. Some don't want yhe andersen hitch, so they get a 3/4, rather than a half ton.

You said in another post that your suv is kind of "on the cusp," so that's another thought. 

 

 

[Apreski]

Practical applications of Newton's three laws of motion.

Commercial potable water /milk tanks cannot be baffled like gasoline tanks. Federal law also mandates these trucks be either 100% full or completely empty when in motion. A 2,500 gal water truck fills up a rural residential property 2,000 gal house tank. The truck is required to dump the remaining 500 gals on the property without moving the truck. The heavy dual axle truck is virtually uncontrollable with forces of only 500 gals of moving water in the tank.

Now, I realize 32-70 gals of partially filled tanks generate smaller forces. However, after 20 years of towing a 21' Bigfoot trailer between Alaska to Baja Sur, I always traveled with a full tank or on occasion an empty one. The weight difference was always noticeable even with my 2001 Duramax 2500.

I pick up a new Ollie in late April. I will fast track back to Colorado perhaps on a route encompassing a 10,000 ft pass. I only have a 200 series Land Cruiser which is not the best TV. I will be traveling most days with an empty fresh water tank. Fortunately, I have ordered a composting toilet, so no black water.

My pursuit for improved safety preempts any inconvenience of a public shower facility or, as an old backpacker, a one gal ***** bath. Should be fun!