Andersen WDH without chains, Sway Only?

[Ralph Mawyer]

John Davies used to pull his OEII with a 200 series Land Cruiser, but he's no longer online, so... in case someone else might be using the Andersen WDH with a similar truck...

 

My understanding is the Andersen manages weight distribution with the chains and sway control with the friction portion of the hitch.
 

I’ve got a 17' Lexus 2013 LX 570, like Toyota Land Cruiser, but has hydraulic suspension leveling. GVWR is 7300lbs. Carrying capacity is rated at 1200 in the US, higher in Europe. I'm pulling a 23' Oliver II weighing approximately 6000lbs with hitch weight of 600lbs.

Since the truck can manage the weight distribution via the suspension, much like with air bags, is there any reason not to just forgo the chain hassles and just use the hitch with the built in sway control? 

I did drive for 1000 miles without the chains being correctly adjusted when I first picked up, on the trip home.  Some sway was noticeable, but not dramatic.

The chains do tighten the load, but in most cases sway seems to be good when not hooked up.  

Thoughts?

[Frank C]

The chains are necessary for the anti-sway function also.  The chains connect to the “whale tail” at the bottom of the hitch ball tapered spindle, and any sway or turning of the trailer causes that ball spindle to rotate against the friction material of the hitch, damping the sway.   If the chains aren’t connected to the whale tail then the trailer bulldog coupler just freely moves on the ball and there’s no anti-sway function.   Here’s a pic from the Andersen website.   

Edited July 23 by Frank C

[Ralph Mawyer]

Thanks, missed that.  So guess my drive back to Texas from Georgia was an experience of towing with just a normal hitch.

[mountainoliver]

I agree with Frank with a very important additional point. The tapered shank is only held inside the aluminum housing by a snap ring set into a shallow groove. I would highly suggest that if the whale tail is not used, a collar and the safety pin be used it hold the assembly together. 

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, Ralph Mawyer said:

I’ve got a 17' Lexus 2013 LX 570, like Toyota Land Cruiser, but has hydraulic suspension leveling. GVWR is 7300lbs. Carrying capacity is rated at 1200 in the US, higher in Europe. I'm pulling a 23' Oliver II weighing approximately 6000lbs with hitch weight of 600lbs.

Your truck is fine in that it's just barely enough. After your hitch weight you only have 600 LBS left and not sure if you're a big guy or not, but me, my wife and dog 450 combined, so in your truck we would have only 150 LBS for cargo! If you still have 3rd row seating in your LX, lose that weight asap for a little more available GVWR. Your suspension is great for leveling the rear but does not carry truly extra weight.

You can see my tow vehicle. User manual states use a WDH when hitch weight over 500 LBS. I tried but would not get on a highway without the Anderson, in my case and yours. It rides nicely with it and bounces up-n-down without.

[mossemi]

3 hours ago, Ralph Mawyer said:

John Davies used to pull his OEII with a 200 series Land Cruiser, but he's no longer online, so... in case someone else might be using the Andersen WDH with a similar truck...

I pulled our 2017 LE2 with a 2014 LC for 6 years and always used an Andersen WD hitch because the 2014 LC owners manual specified that any tongue weight over 500 lbs. required one.  We bought the LC in 2016 because I wanted to order an Ollie in 2018, it was our 4th Toyota, its load capacity was 8,100 lbs. and it was a SUV.  The fact that it needed a WD hitch was not an issue and never was.

We now tow with a F-150 and still use the Andersen WD hitch, because it’s required and I don’t  think I know any more that the engineers at Toyota or Ford do about the capabilities of their trucks, so I embrace their recommendations.

Mossey

[Rivernerd]

15 hours ago, mossemi said:

We now tow with a F-150 and still use the Andersen WD hitch, because it’s required and I don’t  think I know any more that the engineers at Toyota or Ford do about the capabilities of their trucks, so I embrace their recommendations.

This is the most important reason to use the Andersen hitch as designed: liability in the event of an accident.  If your tow vehicle owners manual instructs to use a weight distribution hitch when towing more than 5000 lbs., "Just Do It."

FWIW, I don't find installing or removing the whale tail to be much trouble, using the trick recommended by Jason Essary:  once the hitch ball is attached, raise the front "stabilizer" jack (which also raises the rear of the attached tow vehicle), until you see slack in the chains.  Did it a couple of times this past weekend.

[Steve Morris]

1 hour ago, Rivernerd said:

FWIW, I don't find installing or removing the whale tail to be much trouble, using the trick recommended by Jason Essary:  once the hitch ball is attached, raise the front "stabilizer" jack (which also raises the rear of the attached tow vehicle), until you see slack in the chains.  Did it a couple of times this past weekend.

Or even easier, once you get the ball under the hitch, back up an additional 1 to 1-1/2". Then slip on the whale tail, pull forward to take out the slack, and drop the hitch onto the ball. Much quicker, and probably less strain on the jack.

 

There are/were nine of us towing with a Toyota 200 Series. I think yours was the only LX, but I'm not positive.

[Rivernerd]

12 hours ago, Steve Morris said:

Or even easier, once you get the ball under the hitch, back up an additional 1 to 1-1/2". Then slip on the whale tail, pull forward to take out the slack, and drop the hitch onto the ball. Much quicker, and probably less strain on the jack.

 

Great suggestion for installing the whale tail.  Can you do the reverse for removal, i.e., safely detach the ball from the coupler with the whale tail still attached and the Andersen chains tight, then back up 1 to 1-1/2" to create slack to enable you to pull off the whale tail ?

[Steph and Dud B]

On 7/23/2024 at 3:29 PM, Ralph Mawyer said:

Some sway was noticeable, but not dramatic.

"Some sway" can go to fishtailing shockingly fast in the right conditions. Had a similar experience with our first rig, a trailer behind a V8 Ford Explorer. We had a Hensley hitch, but the dealer installed it incorrectly and we suddenly got strong sway while crossing a big bridge. i was able to maintain control but it was scary.

[jd1923]

Honestly, I don't how any of you manage, towing with SUVs! Go back to @John E Davies posts and you will see the custom shelving and everything else he did to store just a few small items.

We feel inside storage of the Oliver EII is good with ample room for kitchen, bath, clothes and personal items. Where do you put all the camping items in an SUV? The Oliver has little outside storage. The front bin for generator (we stow a fire ring and cooking grate there). Then you have the awkward trunk. All we keep back there is the shore power cord, hoses, an accessory bag, empty jugs for fuel and radiator emergencies and our campground blanket.

Back of the pickup is needed for lawn chairs, grill and stand, a folding table, tools and much more. To allow boondocking for a full week, we bring extra water too (35-gal tank). The only constraint is the black tank (will just last a week), but no, we're not composting poop. 🤣

Get a pickup truck eventually and make it a 2500! Still use the Anderson, unless you purchase a modern beast of a truck. It will make setup and tear-down quick and easy and if you find something you want to buy along the road, you'll have the room to bring it home.

[Steve Morris]

On 7/25/2024 at 1:09 AM, Rivernerd said:

 

Great suggestion for installing the whale tail.  Can you do the reverse for removal, i.e., safely detach the ball from the coupler with the whale tail still attached and the Andersen chains tight, then back up 1 to 1-1/2" to create slack to enable you to pull off the whale tail ?

Absolutely! As in any hooking up/unhooking situation, make sure you have chocks in place. Only once have I had any binding where the ball didn't easily drop out of the hitch. Raising it a couple more inches and the truck dropped right out.

[Steve Morris]

22 hours ago, jd1923 said:

Honestly, I don't how any of you manage, towing with SUVs!

Maybe you bring too much stuff? 😜

I came to the Oliver from a (square) teardrop, and backpacking before that. So compactness and comfortable camping go hand in hand. We routinely carry six chairs with us, but four of them take up less space than the larger lounger. My outdoor kitchen, which travelled in the tiny trailer, too, folds down about the size of a small Costco folding table. We easily travelled a month from Ohio to Florida last year, taking four seasons of clothes with us. We can easily carry the 12' Clam, our propane fire pit, a third 20# propane can, etc. for comfortable and fun excursions. We have yet had trouble fitting stuff without resorting to packing to the rafters. We even brought home a tree in the bathroom from last year's Oliver rally!

I don't want a pickup. This is the vehicle I've aspired to for 40+ years since first test driving an FJ40, and I won't be replacing it with anything else. And it will hold its value and be more reliable than any pickup ever made. Hell, both it and the Oliver will outlast me, and my kids have already argued over who has dibs on both. 🤣

Edited July 26 by Steve Morris

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, Steve Morris said:

Maybe you bring too much stuff? 😜

I've seen pictures of the Oliver rallies. Oliver owners that easily have twice the outdoor gear than we do, extra tables & recliner chairs, camp lights, screened rooms and so much more! Can't get a 35-gal water tank in an SUV and we don't leave home in the SW w/o extra water. We don't pack an extra fridge, no generator, lots of available space in the bed.

We love our GX470 too and the two cars and two other trucks we have on the property. I have not spent a year (cannot) without a pickup truck since I bought my first one 40 years ago. My best friend from high school said at the time, "What took you so long?"

I always get a chuckle watching SUV owners load up at the Depot! 🤣 As they are busy making room, I quickly load my purchases in the bed and drive off. Ya gotta admit the back of your truck is quite full near GVWR and you could not get me or my wife to spend one night in that other camper!

After we pack for a trip, our TV has 1300 LBS available GVWR and our Oliver sits under 6400 LBS. It's easier with a pickup and safer not to push the limits.

Edited July 26 by jd1923

[Steve Morris]

3 hours ago, jd1923 said:

I have not spent a year (cannot) without a pickup truck since I bought my first one 40 years ago. My best friend from high school said at the time, "What took you so long?"

I always get a chuckle watching SUV owners load up at the Depot! 🤣 As they are busy making room, I quickly load my purchases in the bed and drive off. Ya gotta admit the back of your truck is quite full near GVWR and you could not get me or my wife to spend one night in that other camper!

I bought a pickup almost 40 years ago, too. But then, I immediately turned it into a station wagon with a capper. I sold that about 25 years ago, and the two times I really needed one since, I rented it at Home Depot for $19.95. I haven't missed it at all, and replaced it with a subcompact turbo wagon. We didn't even have a pickup truck growing up on Grandpa's farm.

Surprisingly, the Land Cruiser has a higher cargo capacity than some variations of Toyota's 1/2 ton Tundra. GVWR is 7385, max towing is 8100, max tongue weight is 750, and cargo capacity is 1360 pounds. And I've removed the 40 pound roof basket and 150 pounds of seats, before adding the fridge and drawers. The fridge was needed for the tiny trailer, and still comes in handy with the Oliver. Especially for preparing frozen food at home for extended trips.

I get you on the tiny trailer. It's not for everyone, but we enjoyed it for seven years. It sure beat tent camping on the ground! But at 70, a little more comfort in the Oliver is very welcome.

[ScubaRx]

19 hours ago, Steve Morris said:

...I bought a pickup almost 40 years ago...I sold that about 25 years ago...I haven't missed it at all, and replaced it with a subcompact turbo wagon.

Surprisingly, the Land Cruiser has a higher cargo capacity than some variations of Toyota's 1/2 ton Tundra. GVWR is 7385, max towing is 8100, max tongue weight is 750, and cargo capacity is 1360 pounds.

I do realize that some folks would rather own a car than a truck. Your 2021 Toyota Land Cruiser per your information says its cargo capacity is (a dismal) 1360 pounds. From that number you will have to subtract your tongue weight (600 pounds) an Andersen Hitch (65 pounds) and two adults (~330 pounds). Now you used up about 1000 pounds of cargo capacity. That means no more than 360 pounds of additional cargo can ride inside the vehicle. You might be able to manage to limit everything else to that weight. Most could not, I know I couldn't. Just my tools alone weigh more than 360 pounds. Could I get by with less? Maybe, but not if I choose to stop to help when I find you stuck on the side of the road with a broken spring, and I always stop. Personally, I think you need a more capable tow vehicle.

Edit: I just saw the pictures of your rear setup and I can say without any reservation whatsoever that you are overloaded. You are just one fender bender away from a serious lawsuit. I guarantee that if a slick lawyer gets involved he will take most everything you have because you are playing outside the rules set by the car manufacturer. Your insurance will likely deny any claims also. If you have any dreams for the future, give them up now, because they will want those too.

This is exactly why you don't see more than nine people trying to tow a (potentially) 7000 pound trailer with what is essentially just a car. Many of us have gone to the heavy duty diesel trucks to ameliorate all the problems you could encounter if you're ever in an accident with a setup like yours. 

Edited July 27 by ScubaRx

[Steve Morris]

On 7/27/2024 at 3:08 AM, ScubaRx said:

I just saw the pictures of your rear setup and I can say without any reservation whatsoever that you are overloaded. You are just one fender bender away from a serious lawsuit.

Yep, we've discussed this before. Even back when you and I talked on the phone shortly after ordering our Oliver. I need to get it weighed to have some real numbers.

The platform isn't the limiting factor, it is the US ratings. The rest of the world has substantially higher GVW than the US with an identical truck (not car - it is a body on frame construction beefier than most full size trucks.) Up to 8400 (vs 7385) with a simple rear spring change and up to 9900 pounds with a rear axle upgrade - all certified by the respective countries. But that doesn't do squat for me in the US, legally. I do know that a lot of of US Land Cruisers have been roaming the highways and mountains out west with GVWs of 8-9000 pounds for many years without legal ramifications. But it only takes once.

The question has come up on the Land Cruiser forum whether the door sticker cargo capacity (based on tire loading) is legally binding when it contradicts the metal plate showing gross axle weights and gross vehicle weights. The discussion between some lawyers, law enforcement officers, and insurance agents came to the conclusion that the GVWR takes precedence if the tires are up to the requirements. A court would have to be the final arbiter, though.

Delivered dry weight of my Land Cruiser was 5715 pounds; 1670 pounds less than the GVWR. There are no options, so that doesn't come into consideration. Taking out another 190 pounds of seats and roof basket should have started me off with 1860 pounds to play with. Eight quarts of oil, 24 gallons of fuel, and 12 quarts of water take up approximately 260 pounds of that, and our fat asses another 340. Tongue weight was 550 pounds in travel trim with full water and bikes, and your 65 pounds for the hitch. Fridge and shelves are about 150 pounds. That leaves around 500 pounds for stuff.

So, do I have another 500 pounds in there? I don't know. That's why I need to weigh the truck, trailer, and both combined to get accurate numbers. I do know that I'm not going to get a different vehicle. I've said before, that I know this combination is a compromise, and one I'm willing to accept for my use.

[rich.dev]

On 7/27/2024 at 4:08 AM, ScubaRx said:

I just saw the pictures of your rear setup and I can say without any reservation whatsoever that you are overloaded.

You can tell from this picture he’s overloaded? 

[Steve Morris]

1 hour ago, rich.dev said:

You can tell from this picture he’s overloaded? 

Tough to tell head on. Looks level to me. Air bags are at 15 PSI. More raises the rear too much and makes for a harsher ride. 
 

[jd1923]

1 hour ago, rich.dev said:

You can tell from this picture he’s overloaded? 

I agree fully with @ScubaRx, except he underestimated the average weight of two adults. The truck picture shows it. These Toyo trucks sit with much more space between the rear tire and the fender vs the front. This pic the front gap looks a little larger than rear. That takes weight off the steering. The Anderson should be tightened some to help.

Also see the pic showing what’s in the back of the truck, the plywood platform, the cooler, etc. wail until the shelf has stuff on it. Yep, overloaded.

[routlaw]

I guess it's each to his or her own as long as safety is fully accounted for. Personally I would not consider this TV  (Landcruiser) for the Elite II especially if bringing along everything but the "kitchen sink".

Interesting while up in Glacier this past week there was another Elite II from Missouri camped a few spaces away from us, using if memory serves me correct a Tundra half ton but did not have the Andersen WDH as far as I could tell. Never got a chance to talk with them. We did the same for 8 years with our half ton F150 and had no issues what so ever, but in yet another thread on this forum someone had warned me that I was on the cusp of being right at or over the threshold of weight limits which I already knew of course. The thought of a law suit did not seem appealing to me so I bellied up to the bar and purchased and install the Andersen last year. 

At best it is a love hate relationship with the damn thing too. The ride is a bit better but not night and day, breaking is a bit more efficient but what a pain to deal with on anything but level ground. It's certainly easy to understand why so many Elite II owners have gone to 3/4 ton trucks due to this situation. Having said all this truth is I suspect the vast majority of people towing RV's, travel trailers etc are considerably out of their advised weight limits. And lets not even bring up the extremely poorly set up rigs going down the road with tongue down/front TV up or just as bad the inverted V where twin axels are virtually riding on the rear axle only.

Thanks

[Steve Morris]

Y’all are welcome to come and measure my tire gap, weigh my truck, weigh my wife, etc. But you’re wrong. I measured tire gap before adding Firestone bags without the trailer, after adding bags without the trailer, and after adding bag with the trailer. The fronts are within 1/4” of stock, and the rears are taller than stock with the trailer in trip configuration. 
 

No kitchen sink here, and a good thing my wife doesn’t see your saying she weighs more than average! Combined we are 318 pounds. Mostly you’re making assumptions about things you know nothing about…

Edited July 29 by Steve Morris

[ScubaRx]

7 hours ago, rich.dev said:

You can tell from this picture he’s overloaded? 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

No, but I can from this one...

And just how did your dog get into this race?

 

[rich.dev]

11 minutes ago, ScubaRx said:

And just how did your dog get into this race

Oh no dog in the race, I was just curious how you could tell from the picture showing the SUV and Oliver. I still learn every day, to me it looked like maybe the rear of the SUV sits a little lower than the front, but then the Oliver looks pretty level. 

[jd1923]

3 hours ago, Steve Morris said:

good thing my wife doesn’t see your saying she weighs more than average! Combined we are 318 pounds.

Nobody said that. 🤣

At your number, you two are petite! Gallup says the average weight Americans ‘“say they weigh” is 181 (average of adult men and women). Let’s add 10 lbs each for the little white lies and you have  realistic 380 lbs AVERAGE for an American couple! Easily 400 for an older couple, those of us who eat well at home and at camp!

I’m 6’ 2” and 220 LBS.  Though I always weigh 230 at the doctor’s office, dressed with jeans and leather belt, hiking shoes size 12, with phone, and wallet, keys in pocket. At 318 lbs total, Chris would have to weigh only 88 lbs and that leaves zero lbs for our pup Charley (65 lbs) and ANYTHING else in the cab!

Put the dog in the trailer to save GVWR!!! No, not our special pup. Do you have any bags up front? Phones, computers, camera, a smaller cooler, a packed lunch?

I’m an industrial engineer with years of estimation experience. I’d say the 3 of us with our stuff in the cab in our truck is 450 lbs min, just plan on 500 being honest.

I weighed all that in place at the scales and we have 1300 unused GVWR, the amount any 1/2 ton truck has to work with from empty!

God bless @ScubaRx. He has every suspension upgrade in his E2 to carry 10K lbs max, likely 8500+ in his Ollie and room to visit several flee markets on his winter missions out west.

Love you @Steve Morris, and love our discussions. You ever get that Pepwave mounted? 🤣 Can’t wait to meet you, and your pretty thin wife, on the Oliver trail.

”On the road again…” Best wishes, JD