Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
John E Davies

Recreational vehicle standards, and why is the average build quality so low?

Recommended Posts

Anybody who has owned a mass produced RV of any brand and price will understand that in general, the quality is pretty much non-existent compared to say the auto industry. Oliver is a very notable exception, and a little reading about the standards of the rest of the industry is enlightening.

 

RVIA certification: http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=about

 

The group lobbies heavily in Washington DC to benefit its members and spends large amounts of cash promoting the RV lifestyle. It does enforce compliance of its (marginal) codes, primarily to ensure occupant safety. If you look at the standards under which they operate, you will see that their concerns are focused on plumbing, electrical and fire.

 

http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=standards

 

They pretty much ignore other factors such as structural design, product longevity, ease of maintenance, and production line quality control. An RV manufacturer can build any pile of rolling debris and sell it as RVIA Certified as long as the systems meet their very minimum specs. Not addressed are:

 

"Stick and staple" walls that will fail after a few weekends of bumpy back roads.

 

Virtually no waterproofing other than hastily applied lap sealants and poorly selected strip seals that are guaranteed to fail and allow moisture to intrude and destroy the cheap interior wood panels and plywood flooring, and to start a happy colony of mold and mildew.

 

Horrible design flaws like (mandatory) slide outs that by design will break and leak.

 

Tacky interior features like flickering electric fireplaces surrounded by flimsy faux stone trim.

 

Interior cabinets crudely built and so weak that they fall off the walls they are barely screwed to.

 

Primitive and weak leaf spring suspensions that wear out and break in a few thousand miles.

 

Inadequate payloads, so the owner will not be able to carry his stuff and full fluids without being dangerously heavy.

 

I'll stop here. Sure, there are exceptions - companies that build higher than average quality trailers, but they are still rolling disasters.  I long ago vowed to never again own a mass produced RV. Here is an interesting article from the other side of the fence ... http://rockymountaintinyhouses.com/not-rvia-certification/

 

Oliver Trailers seems to occupy a curious niche in the market. They build extremely high quality "legacy" trailers that far exceed the minimum RV standards. I suspect that they could drop out of RVIA entirely and successfully continue to sell trailers, but they would lose those customers who must finance and whose lenders insist on certification.

 

I find it very interesting that a few people are willing to pay so darned much for such a small travel trailer. It indicates that they want a superior product and the comfort and long term security it offers. There are VERY few other RV manufacturers here in the USA who are as good or better, and none of them build trailers. To get the superior build quality, you have to go to EarthCruiser, Earth Roamer, XP Camper or one of the custom expedition vehicle builders - and the common thread among them is that their customers REQUIRE a fully self sufficient camper that can travel the world without breaking down, and the cost is very high. Some of the Australian off-road trailers fall in this category but none are sold in the USA.

 

Very few of these high end rigs have regular junk RV appliances - they instead use very high quality marine units, often diesel fired. Here is one area that I wish Oliver would change..... it would raise the price substantially but I think many buyers would like the choice.

 

I am baffled about the continued success of the mainstream RV industry here ... are buyers stupid or do they just not care that they are buying crap, pardon my language?

 

I will be sending an order to Oliver before the New Year. I am still working on the financing part...

 

Please discuss.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oliver offers a 1 year warranty to the original owner.

 

That being said, I am the second owner who purchased it past its 1 year anniversary.

 

Both issues I had with my trailer Oliver took care of under warranty without a single question. They even reinforced the bracing welds on my A frame, as I had seen them in some photos of a newer trailer and asked about them while there.

 

To me, this is some of the reasoning to paying a premium price and actually seeing that the value is worth it.

 

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Randy


One Life Live It Enjoyably


2017 F350 6.7L SRW CC LB


2015 Oliver Elite II Hull #69

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding warranty, I also purchased a year-old Oliver past its warranty period. I brought it to Tennessee to upgrade the suspension and replace the Coleman a/c with Dometic.  Even though it was past the warranty period, and I did not purchase directly from them, Oliver performed three other upgrades/service items free of charge-  1.)welded gussets on the a-frame as they did with TrytoRelax,  2.) changed out battery cables to larger gauge, I think for solar efficiency, and  3.) the manufacturer of the battery tray that was installed had a run of trays where the rivets were installed backwards, and in some instances rubbed on the sides of the batteries. They drilled them out and installed the rivets correctly to avoid potential problems down the road.  I don't think any prospective Oliver buyer should have any concerns about a 1-year warranty period.

  • Thanks 1

GrayGhost


2015 Legacy Elite II Hull # 98


2016 Dodge Ram Laramie EcoDiesel


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oliver offers a 1 year warranty to the original owner. That being said, I am the second owner who purchased it past its 1 year anniversary. Both issues I had with my trailer Oliver took care of under warranty without a single question. They even reinforced the bracing welds on my A frame, as I had seen them in some photos of a newer trailer and asked about them while there. To me, this is some of the reasoning to paying a premium price and actually seeing that the value is worth it.

 

Even though it was past the warranty period, and I did not purchase directly from them, Oliver performed three other upgrades/service items free of charge- 1.)welded gussets on the a-frame as they did with TrytoRelax, 2.) changed out battery cables to larger gauge, I think for solar efficiency, and 3.) I don’t think any prospective Oliver buyer should have any concerns about a 1-year warranty period.

 

Agree, They took care of work on our Ollie when it was past warranty and we purchased our Ollie used.  When I told the Oliver tech how much I appreciated the work done for no charge, he said  "When you purchased an Oliver, you joined the Oliver family!"


Bill

LE2 Tundra

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Don't buy an RV" ..... this is a must see video from a consumer protection lawyer describing why mass produced RVs have such horrible reputations.

 

 

I know Oliver as a company stands behind its products in a very big way, but if you as an Ollie buyer are not prepared to visit the factory for a fix, or to make your own repairs, then you are entirely at the mercy of your local dealers, who undoubtedly don't care anything about your problems, other than perhaps saying, "This is so cool! But you paid WAY too much for it."

 

Since everybody there is an ignorant, clueless jerk....

 

Yes, I am a little bitter, LOL. I view the industry as a whole as money sucking parasites.

 

I am ready to do all that is needed to maintain my future Ollie, by myself.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

  • Thanks 1

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John, I agree that a lot of RV dealers leave a lot to be desired, but there are other alternatives for maintenance and repair of some systems. I found an excellent frame and axle shop in Iowa City. They primarily work on trucks, but they also work on various types of trailers. They ordered and installed my Dexter EasyFlex and repacked my wheel bearings this year. They can service my brakes as well. I hope to find a reputable RV repair facility where I can get any potential problems with components like the fridge, water heater, furnace, a/c repaired. So far, I have been able to troubleshoot with phone support from Oliver when I've had any issues. This forum has really helped because doing regular maintenance should help us keep our Ollies in good condition. People like you on this forum have shared a lot of valuable information that makes it easier for us to maintain our campers!

 

Don


Don

 

2020 Conqueror UEV 490 Extreme Platinum

 

 

2019 Ram Rebel

 

 

States I visited with my Ollie (Sold October, 2019)

 

 

States Visited Map

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nine years with ours in February.

We have replaced the norcold original refrigerator with a domestic. If I had it to do over, I'd have replaced it with a danfoss compressor marine type refrigerator, but we needed a fridge... Next time. And chances are, some time in the next two decades that we hope to keep camping, we will need to fix or replace the domestic...

We replaced the original Atwood water heater with a Girard instantaneous. Our choice. Happy there.

The original microwave is dead, probably from lack of use. I think I used it three times? We rarely have AC power hookups. Was dumb to order one in the first place. I plan to replace it with a cabinet one of these days.

All other systems are go, after almost nine years. Oh, the shroud on the AC unit has some cracks, which we covered with permanent tape, but our unit sits in the sun 24/7/365. I'll order a replacement shroud sometime this summer.

By this time, in a sticky, with our miles on mountain roads, we'd be past done on loose cabinetry, leaked EPDM roof, etc. We have delivered brand new RVs that rattled like crazy, and had loose screws rolling on the floor on smooth highways.

That said, an Oliver is a high price to pay per square foot, and I'm sure there will never be a slide. (Have to say, I like slides when they actually work, and don't leak, or allow major dust intrusion, or freeze you out at night when it's a bedroom slide, uninsulated, hanging out in freezing air.. I've experienced all the above..

What we got, what you will get, is an incredible handmade, US product, plus an incredible caring US company that does stand behind its product.

Tennessee is a long drive for you, but there is so much to explore within a few hundred miles. Worth the trip, if you encounter something odd you can't fix yourself.

We go back every year or two or three just to check in, revisit, and see what's new.

Good luck on your decision. It's not easy.

Sherry

 


2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Btw, we've seen some of the Aussie extreme campers, as well as a few German built extreme campers, and the California built xp truck camper, which is amazing molded fiberglass, and unbelievably expensive... Several Times more than an oliver.

Those vehicles, built to go Patagonia to the Arctic circle, are pretty much bulletproof proof, but even tinier than our small elite I. Not for me. I don't like truck campers.

Hat said, truck campers dont have rear tires kicking gravel on the front face. I've read some of your posts. If you want to take an Ollie totally off road in the Yukon or Alaska or similar, you'll want to protect the glass. We have a few minor chips, even with rock tamers and protection. I know you're aware of that. Did you ever find a USA source for that great rock guard someone posted about last year with the full flap?

Sherry


2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Buzzy,

 

Interesting point and I don't think that it "hijacks" the thread at all.  OTT's willingness to not only fix things, improve things and go the extra mile seems to be in direct contrast to most of the rest of the RV industry.

 

When I dropped off Twist for some warranty issues back in late August, Tommy told me that they would also be doing some additional work.  In asking for more specifics on this he told me that the main battery cables would be replaced (I think he said that they were increasing the gauge of these cables to 4).  It seems that in conjunction with the solar equipment manufacturer(s) they had determined that there was a minor voltage drop that could be prevented (reduced) with these new cables.

 

In thinking about this I was very pleased that OTT would go to this length to "make things" as good as they could be.  However, I also thought about what might I be missing if I had not taken Twist in for other work.  For my purposes I do not think that these larger cables make much (if any) difference.  But, are there other "upgrades" that might mean something to me, even if I have to pay for them?  Given that I do not know what I do not know, how am I supposed to know - if you know what I mean?  Certainly it would take a fair amount of time and effort for the folks at OTT to "publish" this kind of material/data.  I think that this type of thing is one of the greatest benefits of this Forum.  It allows for the distribution of information without a great deal of effort being placed on the shoulders of any one party.  Of course, the down side is that one has to be somewhat active on the Forum and have enough knowledge to know just what things might apply to their situation.  This is not necessarily an easy task either.

 

For me, the bottom line is that I am more than happy to work with a company that not only produces what I believe to be about the best there is but also does what they can to make sure that the product remains as good as they can make it.  As you have said - being familiar with, understanding your camper and its systems, and having a good base knowledge all help in making for a better experience.  Having someone at OTT that could "post information" etc. would certainly be very useful and even extend the lead that they already have on being the best.

 

Bill

  • Thanks 1

2017 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5EB FX4 Max Towing 2016 Oliver Elite II - Hull #117 "Twist"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry for the necro-post but nothing in this thread is outdated.

 

I come from a boating background.  Instead of partying while in college I worked on boats.  Ended up buying a cheap trailerable fiberglass sailboat older than I was and restored it.  When I picked it up every deck and hull fitting leaked and there was about 6" of funky old rainwater standing in the bilge.  The bow eye was nearly ripped out, standing and running rigging were trashed, wood was on its way out.  But the hull was still sound and the wood was mostly cosmetic.  The interior was also gelcoated fiberglass like the Ollies.

 

I learned how to do minor fiberglass repair (and a bunch of other fun stuff) and in about a year I had her back in the water bashing up the California coast.

 

My point is that even though this poor 25-year-old boat was completely neglected for the better part of a decade and had extensive water intrusion, it was easily salvagable by an idiot college kid.  How?  Because it was made of molded fiberglass with no wood in the structure.

 

Fast forward to 2017 and I'm looking at travel trailers.  I only went to one dealer and left disgusted by the cheesy construction.  Cheap **** stapled to OSB, taped "caulking", rubber roof, are you freakin kidding me???  Then I start doing research and find that a lot of these things struggle to make it to 5 years old without serious mold or structural problems.  Some don't even make it 2 years.  No thanks!!

 

I found the Casita trailers first, then Escape, and finally Oliver.  I'm learning to like the Oliver floorplan but I immediately liked how all the interior structure is molded fiberglass, just like my boat was.  And no wood!

 

To me, $65k amortized over 15 years is a lot better than $18k over 2-5 years. Even if I don't end up keeping it that long or if buying several cheaper units end up costing less, not having to constantly worry about or fix problems is worth it to me.  Yes I know fiberglass RVs still need maintainence.  Like Buzzy said there's the peace of mind that comes with owning a high quality, well-built thing with a quality company standing behind it.

 

So with that said, my wife and I just placed our order this week.

 

Disclaimer: I talked about myself so much not because I think anybody particularly cares about me per se, but because I think my perspective or frame of mind may be representative of some portion of Oliver's target audience.

  • Thanks 1

2018 OLEII #344   |   2018 Ford Expedition


AZCACOGAKSMONMTNWYsm.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now we just need the 28' Oliver Toy Hauler to be born :)

  • Thanks 1

Happy Camping,


null


Reed & Karen Lukens with Riffles our Miniature Poodle


2017 Oliver Legacy Elite II  Standard, Hull #200 / 2017 Silverado High Country 1500 Short Bed 4x4


Past TV - 2012 Mercedes-Benz ML350 4Matic BlueTEC Diesel


Click on our avatar pic above to find the videos on our Oliver Legacy Elite II


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Like Buzzy said there’s the peace of mind that comes with owning a high quality, well-built thing with a quality company standing behind it. So with that said, my wife and I just placed our order this week.

Congratulations!  Now the wait begins....

 

We are sure enjoying our Oliver and hope to see you out on the road. Mike

  • Thanks 1

Mike and Carol | Fair Oaks Ranch, TX | 2016 Elite II #135 | 2020 Ram Rebel 4X4 5.7L Hemi

ALAZARCACOFLGAIDILKSKYLAMDMSMOMTNENVNMNYNCNDOHOKSCSDTNTXUTVAWVWYsm.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry for the necro-post but nothing in this thread is outdated. I come from a boating background..

Congratulations! This is a great time to order since you won’t be constantly staring out the window wishing you were camping.

 

I love your forum name and especially your avitar, for the non- boaters here, would you care to explain?

 

I think Rumline is a stellar name for your new Ollie, Sales can have a graphic made for you to pick up at delivery; you need to send them a high resolution picture with “print size” info. I used an online vinyl boat name website, found a font I liked,  and generated mine. Easy.

 

A207A120-9D1C-40A6-9B41-8E786E02721B.thumb.jpeg.cf6fbf878d3fbffbea108a740628763f.jpeg

 

”Necro-post”  - I love it!

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA


"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
$65k amortized over 15 years...

15?  We're planning on 40!

  • Thanks 1

Snowball • 256 • 2018 Ford Raptor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Congratulations! This is a great time to order since you won’t be constantly staring out the window wishing you were camping. I love your forum name and especially your avitar, for the non- boaters here, would you care to explain? I think Rumline is a stellar name for your new Ollie, Sales can have a graphic made for you to pick up at delivery; you need to send them a high resolution picture with “print size” info. I used an online vinyl boat name website, found a font I liked, and generated mine. Easy. 

Thank you for the kind words.  My wife and I just started thinking of names but I'd not considered Rumline.  She's the admiral* so we'll see what she thinks.

 

A "rhumb line" is a straight line course on a Mercator-projection chart.  You can travel a rhumb line by steering the same compass bearing.  As you travel around with a constant angle to magnetic north, your course will curve on the actual globe.  A "great circle" route is the shortest path between two points and appears as a straight line on a globe, but it's much harder to steer one with just a compass.

 

I like rhumb lines because while they're not the "best" or most efficient means of travel, they're really easy and good enough for me.  I replaced "rhumb" with "rum" since I appreciate distilled spirits, rum included.

 

15? We’re planning on 40!

 

Ha!  That's great!  By 15 years I didn't mean that's how long the Ollie will last, rather that I expect we'll want to move on to something else within that timeframe.  Not necessarily another RV.  But who knows.  Either way, long before the end of the Ollie's useful life.

 

 

 

* For the non-boaters, referring to one's wife as "the admiral" is a tongue-in-cheek statement reflecting the fact that while you may be the captain of your boat, she still outranks you.  Happy wife, happy life.

  • Thanks 1

2018 OLEII #344   |   2018 Ford Expedition


AZCACOGAKSMONMTNWYsm.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
“I am ready to do all that is needed to maintain my future Ollie, by myself. John Davies Spokane WA

 

I must say John, you did exactly what you said you would do a year ago. Cheers.

 

To me, $65k amortized over 15 years is a lot better than $18k over 2-5 years. Even if I don’t end up keeping it that long or if buying several cheaper units end up costing less, not having to constantly worry about or fix problems is worth it to me.

 

Oliver is built to last. There is no doubt about it and the proof is right here in the forums, it's every single one of you. Thank you!

  • Thanks 1

Full Stack Developer/Marketing @ Oliver Companies

Oliver Forums Guidelines & Rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congratulations! And, welcome aboard.

 

Like you, there are a good number of boaters in the Oliver family.  The longevity of fiberglass hulls (like our forty year old sailboat) is convincing.

 

Sherry

 

 


2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sort of back to the subject line - I went to the RV and Camping show in Greenville, South Carolina today.  There were a ton of RV's there and quite a number of motor homes.  Not one molded fiberglass camper.  Honestly, I did try to find something, anything that had what one might even call a decent build quality.  It should come as no surprise - I didn't find a thing (with the possible exception of one motor home costing in the 1/2 million range).  In fact, there were a fair number of these things that makes me wonder just how on earth the dealer will ever sell something where the cabinet drawers are already falling out, the doors and drawers either don't close or are not level and even the exterior seams are not fully caulked.  However, there sure was a bunch of people that genuinely seemed excited about these hunks of junk.  Go figure!

 

Bill


2017 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5EB FX4 Max Towing 2016 Oliver Elite II - Hull #117 "Twist"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

“Congratulations! This is a great time to order since you won’t be constantly staring out the window wishing you were camping.”

 

John Davies, I wish I could say this was true- we pick our Oliver up in June. But everywhere I go, I check out whether there is winter camping! We spent New Years in Steamboat Springs (Colorado), and all I could think about was that next year I can take my Ollie and camp out at Steamboat Lake Campground. I’ve made a list of all the campgrounds in Colorado that are open year-round! My husband thinks I’m crazy.

  • Thanks 1

Alison, Ross & Annika


Hull No. 310

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sort of back to the subject line – I went to the RV and Camping show in Greenville, South Carolina today. There were a ton of RV’s there and quite a number of motor homes. Not one molded fiberglass camper. Honestly, I did try to find something, anything that had what one might even call a decent build quality. It should come as no surprise – I didn’t find a thing (with the possible exception of one motor home costing in the 1/2 million range). ....However, there sure was a bunch of people that genuinely seemed excited about these hunks of junk. Go figure! Bill

 

Bill, we go to the Tampa RV supershow every January. We see very little of interest, and certainly nothing that would tempt us to trade down for a stick built trailer.

 

Almost every year, we rent a campervan somewhere in the world, or deliver a new sticky RV to Alaska. We always take a small toolkit. We always need it....

 

Sherry


2008 Ram 1500 4 × 4

2008 Oliver Elite, Hull #12
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I’ve made a list of all the campgrounds in Colorado that are open year-round!

How did you find these campgrounds? Last I looked in mid November everything I could find was closed.

 

I'd love to do late and early season camping, not sure I'd brave Steamboat for New Years.  Although it's been really warm and dry down here in Colorado Springs this winter.  We could have gone camping well into December.


2018 OLEII #344   |   2018 Ford Expedition


AZCACOGAKSMONMTNWYsm.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 But everywhere I go, I check out whether there is winter camping! We spent New Years in Steamboat Springs (Colorado), and all I could think about was that next year I can take my Ollie and camp out at Steamboat Lake Campground. I’ve made a list of all the campgrounds in Colorado that are open year-round! My husband thinks I’m crazy.

Alison ... So do I. Please take no offense, but you need understand that towing any travel trailer in the high mountains in mid-winter is highly dangerous and very hard on the trailer itself, especially in states that use chemical deicers or salt. Sure you see all sorts of brakeless snowmobile trailers up in the passes, but they are corroded and blasted by sand and they sure don’t weigh three tons and cost $60k. A truck camper or a 4wd motorhome makes much more sense if you plan to travel and camp in the snow.

 

Olivers are four season, but that means they are suitable for freezing weather, not for hazardous winter driving conditions.

 

It’s often difficult in mild weather to find a safe place to pull off the road or to turn around. When the shoulders are bermed with packed snow, it could be impossible.

 

You have good brakes on your Ollie, but when the roads are icy there is no way they will be safe. You will have to back way off on their power to prevent them from locking up, then how do you stop it? You can’t..... and how do you maneuver and back up in your typical parking area with no traction?

 

If you insist on towing in winter, be prepared to see lots of damage to your trailer and the resale value will be greatly diminished. I am not even sure your RV insurance would accept a claim under such conditions ... it would be considered extreme or unusual use. Just as off highway damage is not covered.

 

This is wonderful in a 4wd pickup camper, with a travel trailer it is just deadly.....

 

dsc08265.jpg

 

Please think about this.

 

John Davies

 

Spokane WA

  • Thanks 4

"Mouse":  2017 Legacy Elite II NARV (Not An RV) Two Beds, Hull Number 218, See my HOW TO threads: https://olivertraveltrailers.com/topic/john-e-davies-how-to-threads-and-tech-articles-links/

Tow Vehicle: 2013 Land Cruiser 200, 33" LT tires, airbags.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great write up John.  And from my life lessons in the snow country, I agree with you.  If there is snow, frost, or ice my Oliver stays in the chocks...


George and Gretchen


Gig Harbor, Wa.


Hull Number 178

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geokeg,

 

I have a Colorado campgrounds book that lists campgrounds that are open in winter- it’s the Moon Colorado Camping book by Joshua Berman. You can find some pretty good lists online just by googling it.


Alison, Ross & Annika


Hull No. 310

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...