AGM Battery Mount Problem

[Mike and Carol]

I was doing some cleaning and maintenance today and pulled the battery tray out and found that the hook that secures the hold down strap to the tray had rubbed one battery enough that, it appeared to me, there may be a small hole in the side of the battery.  The hook has corrosion that the other three don’t.  I thought about slipping a thin piece of something (aluminum?) between the battery and the hook.  These batteries are 5 years old and seem to charge fine. Thoughts?

This shows both straps/hooks.  The one in back has an issue.

 

Here’s a close shot of the strap and hook with corrosion.

 

 

[mjrendon]

That battery is now leaking.  So even if you place something to prevent further damage from the clip, the existing leak will continue to cause corrosion of the tray.  Have you checked to see if the tray has started to corrode below that battery?

Edited December 13, 2020 by mjrendon

[Townesw]

Well crap! Mine are doing it also. Hasn’t worn through yet but definitely wearing holes at all 4 locations. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Townesw

[Overland]

Funny, I was just cleaning up the two batteries that I’m sending back to Battleborn and was dismayed at the abuse they seem to be taking in the battery tray.

The first pic is the bottom corner of one, where apparently some rivets in the tray dug into the case. The second is two gouges in the other battery from I don’t know what - I’m guessing a ratchet strap. And the third is the weirdest of all - it looks like the strap itself dug into the case, almost like it melted it. 

[rideandfly]

Other batteries may be larger than my Duracell 12V Marine/RV Group 27 batteries. Need to measure overall interior width of your battery tray to see if 1/8" material can be placed on both side of your batteries.

Noticed rivet clearance problems with both group 27 AGM 12V batteries in Ollie's battery tray during discussion in thread here. Rivet and battery hook contact made with batteries can be stopped with 1/8" plastic between the battery and tray on my Ollie. There is enough clearance on both sides of my group 27 batteries for 1/8" plastic. Cutouts can be made in the plastic to accommodate the rivets and strap hooks to prevent battery damage. 1/8" plastic cutting board or 1/8" plastic (UHMW) from Amazon could be used. Other types of 1/8" materials could be used, too.  

Just have not gotten this project yet

Edited December 13, 2020 by rideandfly

[John E Davies]

You could load test them , but IMHO five year old AGM batteries are toast, regardless of whether they are leaking acid or not.... they need to be replaced before your next trip as a complete set ($$) or with lithiums and a new charger ($$$$). I hope the tray has not been ruined. Clean it up with baking soda and water, scrub well and repaint with a good spray paint. I really like the ceramic Duplicolor Brake Caliper Paints, they require no primer and are tough, but very easy to apply and they stay looking good for a long time.

The damage to Overland’s cases is disturbing, does the material seem to be really soft? I was considering making pads from thin mudflap material or old conveyor belts (cloth reinforced neoprene) for my new Victrons, I think that idea just got shoved up the “Honey Do List” to near the top.

This is all one big learning curve, isn’t it? As these trailers age, we start to see all sorts of unpredictable glitches appearing.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by John E Davies

[mjrendon]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

The first pic is the bottom corner of one, where apparently some rivets in the tray dug into the case. The second is two gouges in the other battery from I don’t know what - I’m guessing a ratchet strap. And the third is the weirdest of all - it looks like the strap itself dug into the case, almost like it melted it. 

Thanks for sharing these pictures. I had noticed the rivets in the latch at the bottom of the battery tray as a potential issue and cut some stand-offs to prevent this.  The other two I did not anticipate.  Improved strapping of the batteries to limit movement may help.  How did you strap your batteries down.

Edited December 14, 2020 by mjrendon

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, mjrendon said:

That battery is now leaking.  So even if you place something to prevent further damage from the clip, the existing leak will continue to cause corrosion of the tray.  Have you checked to see if the tray has started to corrode below that battery?

Battery tray is fine, so far.  I was doing some cleaning and maintenance because we are heading west (AZ, maybe UT) right after Christmas.  At this point I’m not going to get all four replaced so we’ll go camp and address this between the Jan/Feb trip and the non-rally in the spring.  This looks to be a mounting issue Oliver needs to address.  I will send the pics to Jason tonight.

[KountryKamper]

Ours appears to be doing the same thing. 

[mountainoliver]

If nothing else, all of the battery photos show that in a mobile application such as in our campers there is almost constant movement between the batteries and the tray. For this reason I don’t think using solid buss bars between batteries is a good thing. I would think that there would be battery lug or internal damage caused. I bring this up because there have been posts about lithium changeover projects lately and this post highlights the need of being somewhat flexible with battery inter connections. 

[mjrendon]

33 minutes ago, mountainoliver said:

If nothing else, all of the battery photos show that in a mobile application such as in our campers there is almost constant movement between the batteries and the tray. For this reason I don’t think using solid buss bars between batteries is a good thing. I would think that there would be battery lug or internal damage caused. I bring this up because there have been posts about lithium changeover projects lately and this post highlights the need of being somewhat flexible with battery inter connections. 

This is a very good point.  However, I brought this up to the folks at Battleborn and they said that bus bars should be fine.  I will check with them again as I already have the materials for bus bars, but I could easily be convinced to setup using cables instead.

Looking at the image that I have attached, one thing to consider is that the bus bars might make the whole 4x battery setup more stable and therefore less likely for the batteries to move independent of each other.  I don't believe that the bus bar alone will be enough to prevent the damage that we are seeing in these pictures or potential lug damage.

When I did my test fit last weekend, I had noticed that the Battleborn batteries are not square (top to bottom) making them more difficult to stabilize when they are on their sides.

This is all new to me so I value your thoughts.

Mike

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by mjrendon

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, John E Davies said:

You could load test them , but IMHO five year old AGM batteries are toast, regardless of whether they are leaking acid or not.... they need to be replaced before your next trip as a complete set ($$) or with lithiums and a new charger ($$$$). I hope the tray has not been ruined. Clean it up with baking soda and water, scrub well and repaint with a good spray paint. I really like the ceramic Duplicolor Brake Caliper Paints, they require no primer and are tough, but very easy to apply and they stay looking good for a long time.

My plan was to replace batteries and tires this spring.  I wanted to get one more trip in Jan/Feb on them first.  If I need to do it now, so be it.  Better safe than sorry.

1 hour ago, John E Davies said:

This is all one big learning curve, isn’t it? As these trailers age, we start to see all sorts of unpredictable glitches appearing.

We keep learning stuff.

[SeaDawg]

Depending on where you go, and power needs, you can run with 2 of the 4 agms. Take two offline..

Probably still more battery power than we have, in our Elite. 

 

[Overland]

2 hours ago, mjrendon said:

When I did my test fit last weekend, I had noticed that the Battleborn batteries are not square (top to bottom) making them more difficult to stabilize when they are on their sides.

I cut off the tabs for the straps on one side so that they’d lie flat.  That worked well, but when I install the new ones, I think I’ll follow Bill’s lead with the plastic liner, but with cutouts for the tabs.  

[mjrendon]

26 minutes ago, Overland said:

I cut off the tabs for the straps on one side so that they’d lie flat.  That worked well, but when I install the new ones, I think I’ll follow Bill’s lead with the plastic liner, but with cutouts for the tabs.

Are there liners available for the Battleborn batteries?

[Mike and Carol]

Question for all the electrically smart folks out there.  Would anyone be interested in doing a “How To” for swapping out batteries in an Oliver?  What not to do, what to do... disconnect solar controller?, turn anything else off?, which cables to disconnect first?, what to look for as far as cable serviceability?, rookie mistakes?

I can try to patch my leaking battery or just go ahead a replace all four with either replacement AGMs or bite the bullet and go lithium.  Exploring options and prices now.  Seems like something I could do myself, just don’t want to get electrocuted or blow up the trailer... because ELECTRICITY...😳!!  Mike

Edited December 31, 2020 by Mike and Carol

[mjrendon]

Mike,

Can you describe your system?

4AGMs -  Y
Solar?
Inverter?
Number of cables into battery compartment?

Inside my battery compartment there are seven cables.  1 big red (main line) and 2 small red (solar pos. and 12V appliance pos.) plus 1 big black (main line) and 3 small black (solar neg., appliance neg. and ZAMP the temperature sensor).  You can also just count the number of connections to your AGM batteries and subtract the battery to battery connectors rather than tracing the cables.

The inverter has a large capacitor that charges and discharges each time a battery connection is made (note: expect sparking unless you have a cut-off switch). 

More details will follow based on your system components.

Edited December 14, 2020 by mjrendon

[mjrendon]

26 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

I can try to patch my leaking battery or just go ahead a replace all four with either replacement AGMs or bite the bullet and go lithium

If your 4x AGMs are working now, you might patch the one and use them until either they fail or you replace them.  Mine gave me a bit of warning in that the tongue jack started to struggle to lift the trailer, where as before there was no hesitation. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by mjrendon

[mossemi]

16 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

Question for all the electrically smart folks out there.  Would anyone be interested in doing an “How To” for swapping out batteries in an Oliver?  What not to do, what to do... disconnect solar controller?, turn anything else off?, which cables to disconnect first?, what to look for as far as cable serviceability?, rookie mistakes?

I will help in any way possible, but I am a little too ADHD to write an “How To" on this subject.  But I would suggest that you purchase this book to start with.  And while you are waiting for it to arrive, watch some of Will Prowse's YouTube videos.

I will suggest that you approach it slowly.  And as Sherry suggested, remove the bad battery pair and take your AZ trip with the remaining 200+ Ah's of batteries and your generator.  Who knows, you may find a great battery deal in Quartzite.

By all means, disconnect the solar panels.  You can cover the panels with blankets or disconnect them from the rooftop port.  And trip the flag circuit breaker under the street side bed.  I believe you should follow Overland's suggestion of eliminating most of the wiring in the battery box by using Buss bars inside.  I am down to 3 wires/cables from the battery box to the inside, 1 battery +, 1 battery - and a battery temperature lead.

Mossey

[John E Davies]

31 minutes ago, mjrendon said:

The inverter has a large capacitor that charges and discharges each time a battery connection is made (note: expect sparking unless you have a cut-off switch). 

THANK YOU - I have been perplexed by this unexpected phenomenon. Why is there one in the inverter, to deal with startup surge issues? I don’t need a Master’s Thesis, just what the heck it is doing in there? Now that I know that the bright blue zap is normal, it won’t bother me quite so much, but sparks around a vented lead acid battery bank certainly would be a concern (hydrogen gas explosion).....

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited December 14, 2020 by John E Davies

[mjrendon]

Capacitors can store and discharge energy very quickly, so they can make-up for very brief, high energy demands that a battery can not keep up with.

[John E Davies]

As far as things to watch out for when disconnecting or removing batteries, the big one is safety. You always disconnect all ground (negative) wires first, and attach them last. Since the ground terminals on the batteries are essentially the same as the trailer frame, in terms of electrical voltage, if you accidentally touch your wrench to a metal object while loosening the nut on the negative post, it won’t do anything at all. if you were to short the positive terminal to a grounded part, it will make a huge high amperage arc. Very dangerous, and it can cause a severe electrical burn! An Ollie is actually pretty safe compared to your car or tractor, since the compartment is made of fiberglass which is a non-conducting material, but you should understand and follow this standard practice, always. You certainly should not drop a long steel tool across the negative and positive terminals. That would be very bad. Search for “welding with a car battery”. And remove any conducting watch or jewelry from your hands or neck, you don’t want a pretty silver necklace to drape across the terminals. Smart mechanics do not wear jewelry, for a good reason. (Plus it can get caught in moving parts.)

Just understand the potential danger (electrical pun intended) of all that stored up energy, and respect it. Don’t work while impared or distracted, and focus on the job. Plastic terminal covers are an excellent way to protect against shorts when transporting batteries, to a shop for testing, for example. If you don’t have them, be very aware of the risk of an arc. Don’t let a steel milk crate or tool box fall against them or let them fall over while driving, they need to be 100% secure. 

Since one of yours is punctured, there will possibly be wet hydrochloric acid underneath; wear rubber gloves, neutralize and wash the batteries thoroughly. Put down some cardboard underneath while transporting them, any residual acid will eat holes in carpet. Or your pants....

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited December 14, 2020 by John E Davies

[mjrendon]

I typically put silver colored duct tape (or other non-conductive tape) over the positive lugs, completely covering them, when I take them off the battery and another color around the negative lugs to help insure things go back together correctly. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by mjrendon

[Mike and Carol]

2 hours ago, mjrendon said:

4AGMs -  Y
Solar?
Inverter?
Number of cables into battery compartment?

Inside my battery compartment there are seven cables.  1 big red (main line) and 2 small red (solar pos. and 12V appliance pos.) plus 1 big black (main line) and 3 small black (solar neg., appliance neg. and ZAMP the temperature sensor).  You can also just count the number of connections to your AGM batteries and subtract the battery to battery connectors rather than tracing the cables.

The inverter has a large capacitor that charges and discharges each time a battery connection is made (note: expect sparking unless you have a cut-off switch). 

I took a close look at the other three batteries and the front one on the same side shows signs of wear with just a very small amount of corrosion behind the top of the strap hook.  I think I need to just replace all four.  It’s about time anyway.

Here’s my setup:

4 Trojan T105 AGMs, 320W Solar, Xantrex 2K inverter, Blue Sky Solar Controller, at least 7 cables.  Pictures:

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Mike and Carol

[SNY SD UP]

For what it is worth, Here is the Batt Arrangement on a 2020 (09/10) delivery Hull # 665.

 I do not know if you can see, but there is a rubber padding between the Battery Restraint (Strap) Hooks and the Batteries.

 

layout of Batt's on 2020 Hull # 665
 

Batt Harness passing thru compartment walls