Geronimo John

Geoff: Good info for sure. Was not aware of the Victron SS log. I'll check it out next summer. Some follow-ups: From my understanding of the 30 amp Victron Orion 12-12/30 charger, the unit is specifically designed not to overamp the draw from the TV battery. As such, the max draw to the Lithium batteries in the RV would by design be 30 amps. How is it possible you get 35.8 amps out of the Orion as it acts as a TV battery 30 overamp "fire wall"? Not by design. My 4AWG cables run: B+: TV battery to Circuit Breaker, an Anderson 175 plug, to Orion to Ollie Lithium (via outside terminal of Orion). B-: Ollie Litho's to Orion to Ollie trailer ground (Center Terminal of the Orion), and then (Outside terminal) to Anderson plug to B- at TV Battery But my 712 Smart display says 22 amps or so, and my clamp on amp meter only shows 16.5 amps. I therefore conclude that about 5.5 amps are going along a metal path of the TV/Ollie team. Yes. That's correct and it is what I am seeing in my system. But in this case the B- has two loops in it's path. The 4 awg cables and the metal path of TV/Ollie. Your statement is true. But I fully expected to see both B+ and B- cables as measured at the hitch area to show the same amperage as you also stated. But the meters don't validate my expectation. The return paths of the B- each has it's own resistance. Per my meters and assumptions, the resistance of the two paths look like the metal path has a higher resistance than the cable path. Specifically, the ratio balances the current measured by their flows. Since less current is flowing in the metal path, it must have a higher resistance than the cable path. Could it be possible that my Victron Orion non-isolated unit ground wire (Center wire of the cable connection) is the source of our observation? If so, are others with this set up seeing similar same amp flows? Roger. I think that most of us that have the older 30 amp Orion's would benefit from both of your suggestions. GJ

JD: Not for our Orion 12/12-30. I ran #4 Battery Cables USA Premium cables B+ and B-. Total length for F-150 Crew Cab was right at 108' out and back. Fortunately my purchase was when copper was much less expensive than it is now. I typically only get abut 23 amps on the B+ cable, and about 75% of that on the B- cable. Where did the other 25% go? Appears to be Ollie frame to Bulldog and Anderson WDH, to F-150 frame to the frame/ battery cable to the B- TV battery terminal. I would think this is a much higher resistance path. As such, one would think that all the B- amps would use the cable path back, but that's not what my amp meter is telling me. Would not bother me much if I was seeing closer to 30 amps, but it is not performing at that level. Reading the great posts above, my next check this summer is to monitor the temp of the Orion. Thinking of adding a fan. GJ

Yep me too JD! Sadly last year I pulled the trigger on the Orion 12/12-30. DRATS. Anybody want to buy a 12/12-30? 😞 Seriously, good move on your part.... again. GJ

Craig: Thanks for posting the pic. I once saw a young engineer cycle one of those valves and he was lucky to only get burns on his other hand.. At least yours points towards a wall so if it went off at 100 PSI from a runaway situation it would likely bounce somewhat downwards. Such an installation clearly violates the National Plumbing Code. However, I could not verify that it violates the RVMA requirements. Only a matter of time before someone gets scalded by this obvious safety hazard. Would especially be tragic if it was a steam release in a severe situation. At least they should install a full size 90 degree elbow to point the discharge down. In the meantime, it would be very wise for owners to be very cautious of this reality when working on our hot water heaters. GJ

That said, I'm sort of thinking that the Calgon beads and Pinesol is a great way to keep the tank clean on a regular basis. But I still recommend using the Thetford lubricant as many of our owners use and cleaning/lubricating the cables every four years or so. So, my inclination is to use both, but not at the same time. Certainly open to the thoughts of our members on this. GJ

Sadly I'm about 4,000 miles from our Ollie. I too have never had a problem with my TPV. But that's normal. Millions of them on hot water heaters just sit there doing nothing for DOZENS of years. Sadly the owners don't know that at least annually they need to be cycled. But since the UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code) requires them to be hard piped to the floor or beyond, when they do cycle it is to the floor. Not you face or into electrical systems as I noted in a different post earlier today. GJ

Was your 2019 TPV discharge plumbed in such a fashion so as to not scald you if it were hot and activated? Or is like our 2018 that could cause scalding of an owner who has the cover open and it went off? GJ

Do not do the above scale clearing technique with the water being hot. Per the picture, the hot water will blast out and likely cause you and possibly others extreme burns. I strongly recommend you contact OTT as this is a code violation and should be fixed immediately. GJ

Yep. Calgon softens water by binding with calcium and magnesium ions. This has the effect of reducing hardness impact on our OTT drain systems by preventing hard water minerals from causing buildup on surfaces. Or, it is a similar effect as washing our hair in soft water. Soap goes a lot further and our hair feels slippery as a result. In our RV's it is sort of a laxative for our system. 🙂 GJ

For the Pro's: Should all the above fail, then knowing some replacement/repair info would be helpful. Are our valves the Valterra 3"? If so, which one? Are one of these the proper repair kit for the blade?

Great info from JD and Mosseim!. I believe you have 4 or 5 years on your OTT. A good reason to lube the cables to the valves before starting the below. Having a flow control valve on your gray water hose discharge end would work if a helper is not available. Also a head lamp to see down the toilet tank or bathroom sink drain line is helpful in not over filling and causing a flood in the bathroom. First dump and rinse the tank at a dump station. Adding a bit of food grade dye in one tank will quickly help you figure out which tank is the problem. Most likely it will be the black tank so I would start there. Would not suggest using blood red as if it gets away from you, it could traumatized the neighbors. 🙂 Blue frosting dye would be a better choice. Full Hookup and a clear fitting at the end of the dump hose is also useful. Once you know which tank is of concern, you could use your gray water hose to fill your tank. Black tank is easy just open the toilet valve. If it is the gray tank, then modulate the flow down the bathroom sink to hyper flow the gray tank. Start with the blade valve closed and fill the tank with close coordination with your partner on the hose bib valve. In an emergency situation kink the hose twice and you'll slow down the flow a lot. With a full tank, then open the valve and keep the gray water hose wide open filling while the tank is draining. Likely anything bad will find itself down the sanitary line to the treatment plant. If this does not work, then go aggressive with harsh chemicals. When done, lubricate the drain valves. Hope this works for you. GJ

Absent kinked or crushed hoses, Jason is spot on with "more clogs". Annual sanitization, vinegar de-scaling every three years, with full flushing the system of antifreeze has been the norm for many years. Frequencies may vary due to water sources, but the idea is proven to pretty well keep biological "clogs" at bay. That said, we often see pipe and tank plastic caused clog problems. they are a result of OTT not fully flushing out the new tanks and other items of the thread cuttings and other items before installation. Those plastic clogs have to manually be removed as no non-destructive service procedure that I know of will do so. In your case it would require you to incrementally disassemble water fittings and flow test your way down stream of your kitchen sink. One question that I did not see asked is the low flow in both the hot and cold side of the bathroom only?

Of course. But it is not disconnected during your evaluations. So, let me try again in a different way. You have taken the time and effort to meticulously run down all the identified sources of parasitic losses in our trailer. At least for all those sources powered up by the 60 amp breaker. This is wonderful work. I also note your above post that you stated: "Devices with memories, remotes, touch lights, rain sensors, USB ports, electronic boards, etc., can each draw milliamp currents even when turned off, and they do add up quickly." I again totally agree with you. So we agree that all those micro loads draw power and many do so when off. Then why would the largest, most complex, and the greatest power draw item we have not draw power when it too is off? That item is the Inverter. Hence my suggestion that it be checked out and added to your list. GJ PS: The other micro amp draw is from trailer lights when the plug is wet. I would totally agree that it is not worth testing as it is a load caused by a problem. Not a load we would need to worry about for the vast majority of our time.

Nice install. Great safety touch too with the split loom over Sparky Spots. GJ

With your excellent posts, it appears that we should expect to be losing around 11.7 amp hours each 24 hours. This then would cause a very nice 390 AH battery to go bingo in 33 days (390/11.7 = 33.3 days.) Less for my three 100 ah Battleborns if I did not kill the 60 amp breaker.. So, without solar or shore power assured, one could see their Litho's shutting down due their BMS hitting low voltage shut down in about a month if they don't kill the 60 amp breaker. According to DragonFly for our Battleborns' using unpowered storage in hard freezing conditions a low voltage shut down is not recommended. For such conditions, DragonFly says we need drain down and then equalize our batteries and then draw them down to the 50 - 60% SOC, Then either disco them or have a Battery Master Switch. They specifically do not desire that we hard freeze them with the SOC outside of the stated range. Following this "protocol" we can safely store our Litho's for a year. Pretty nice in our case. I would be very interested if other MFG's feel the same as DragonFly on this. GJ

Some serious thought about the registry security would be needed. With all the hackers out there, I would worry about the possibility of the registry becoming a shopping list for Ollie thieves. With the price of a new OTT, they certainly could become targets. GJ

rideadeuce Now that's a MOD I would truly enjoy! SWEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geoff: Again great work on the parasitic losses. I wonder what your amp meter would show if you physically disconnected the 4/0 wire to the Inverter with your 60-amp breaker off?

Geoff: Thank you. From your perspective, use, & trailer options; I can understand and respect your justification for not seeing the need for a master battery switch for your trailer. Concerning some of your responses: Increased Resistance: Yes resistance is bad and should be minimized especially with the high amperages ... as you stated. The suggested switch install in the battery box, as several of us have done, uses a short copper flat bar, and no additional lugs or extra wire. The increased resistance induced is inconsequential compared to the terrible efficiency of many of our Inverters. Especially the older ones! No Place to Install: The suggested Blue Seas Series 9000 E switch has nicely been installed in the battery bays, under the dinette seats, and under the street side bed of our trailers. Depends on your priorities. If you wanted access inside, it can be mounted inside. If you want it outside we have space the battery box for many Litho Battery installs. (But not all). Either way, locations are not an issue. Huge Size of Switch: Tilt, see above. No Compelling Reason: How about the Fire/Rescue having the ability to stop the flow of power to an inside fire? This is especially the case for Lithium installations. One of the reasons to put the switch where they will first look for it. Un-necessary Burden of turning the battery off when In and Out of the Trailer: For most of us, that is not the purpose of this switch. Many of us only use it for storage and emergency use. It takes me less than 15 seconds to turn on/off, and that happens on our first season’s voyage and off 3 - 4 months later in the fall when we winterize. But some owners likely do so more often. For Standby Power Losses During Storage: Some lucky owners such as yourself have solar and/or shore power in their storage site 365 days a year. Some owners don’t need to worry about their batteries freezing. On the other hand, some owners do not see their trailer for months at a time over winter. Collectively this means that more than a few owners do need to isolate their batteries. Additionally some battery manufactures do not recommending keeping their Litho's at full charge when not being used, especially where deep freezes occur occasionally. Simply shut off the DC breaker that supplies the DC fuse panels: The purpose of the Master Switch is to shut off ALL DC power to the trailer from their batteries. The 60-amp DC breaker does not do this. I believe that it does not terminate the power to the Inverter which is wired into the 300-amp fused via 4/0 wiring. For our trailers, if we want to kill all DC current flow, without a 300 amp breaker, which I am not aware of any OTT trailer having, we would have to remove the 300-Amp fuse or disconnect a terminal in the battery compartment. But either are a PITA. So, we do so in 15 seconds or less by turning off the Master Switch. To summarize, many of our OTT owners don’t have such a great storage solution as apparently you are blessed with. Likewise, they and others have chosen the peace of mind that the DIY installation of a Master Switch provides. I hope you and the family are enjoying a great Christmas! GJ

Geoff: What a great post. It certainly sheds a technical light on the amp draw issue. Knowledge is good. Speaking of which, would you please elaborate further on not installing a high quality Battery Master Switch? There are some owners who are on the fence in this regard, and your perspective would be beneficial. Thanks, GJ

I'm not familiar with the wiring on your trailer, but for many years YES, there is a fuse panel in the Attic, right side.

To avoid clutter one could Velcro a square section of pool noodle as suggested. GJ

JD & JD: Roger on the CO detector. Also there are: The transformer for the USB plugs, The refrigerator LED's on the control board. The furnace feeding power to the T-stat if digital The Microwave control board and LED's The feed back loop that can occur where the tail lights have a dim light despite not being plugged in. to the TV. What else have we missed? So basically there are multiple sources for power to be drained. Super small amounts each, but together they can be measured. Years ago John Davies tried to find them all, and pretty much did. But after spend a lot of time on this drain and eliminating all he could, he was still losing power, I believe .1 amp if I recall. If he could not find it, it was not worth looking further in my eyes. GJ

No magic on this process. Drop by your favorite auto parts store and ask to borrow their electrical clamp on amp meter. It has jaws like a huge pair of plyers. Set their meter for amps and put it around your battery + cable. It reads the amps on the meter. With your TV motor shut off, you can practice with their tool. Just put the jaws around your + battery cable. then have someone inside the vehicle and turn on various electrical devices. You can easily see how much power they are drawing.

Great visual. Thanks for posting!