Truck Shopping and Cargo Weights

[Overland]

But with Timbrens. Otherwise, it’s butt would be dragging. Also the Raptor essentially has an F250 frame and rear axle, which makes me a lot more confident in its ability to take some abuse. I’d feel the same about a Power Wagon, but I don’t know anything about the Rebel.  

[BackofBeyond]

Dave - Found this - supposed to be the standard they follow,

Known as SAE J2807 and defined as “Performance requirements for determining tow-vehicle gross combination weight rating and trailer weight rating,” the standard measures a vehicle’s ability to safely tow by measuring braking distances, acceleration times, passing ability, grade-climbing ability, and physical load-carrying capability.

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard/

 

Seems straightforward - right....

Somewhere in there payload must come into play

Edited December 11, 2019 by BackofBeyond

[Galway Girl]

Previous post on truck ratings:

 

[jo79RI]

Why does the 1150 lb maximum not work, and how does the Toyota Tundra compare?

[DavePhelps]

19 hours ago, jo79RI said:

Why does the 1150 lb maximum not work, and how does the Toyota Tundra compare?

Well it depends on how much you take with you and what accessories you have loaded on to your truck. For example, for my still unpurchased new truck, I use this personal list:

Elite 1 tongue weight: 450 lbs (the Elite 2 is around 600 lbs for most I believe)
2 adult passengers: 300 lbs (generous for us wee folk)
Truck topper on the back: 200 lbs
Spray in bed liner and a mat: 100 lbs (guessing here)
Canoe and rack on top: 50 lbs

So adding all this up, before I have even put any cargo in the truck, I have accumulated  1100 lbs of payload weight! With the Elite 2, I would have 1250 lbs.

This is how fast payload adds up, and each person needs to do an assessment of their particular needs and weights. Adding higher load rated tires, or airbags, or other "load enhancement" devices will not increase your payload capacity as it is written on the sticker of your door jamb.

A double cab Tundra 4X4 Limited, with the 6.5 bed (my preferred setup) has a payload of 1570 lbs. The SR5 is 1630 lbs, so not much more.  There is just not a lot to play payload wise with the 1/2 tons. Ford does better with their F-150 and they also offer a Heavy Duty Payload Package, but not on the Limited and above trims...go figure. As much as I don't want to drive a big HD pickup, that may be where I am heading, especially because we may someday move up to the larger Elite 2. I'd love to get the Tundra but am worried I'd overload it (based on the stickers). Maybe the Ford F-150 with the HDPP would do it.

Dave 

Edited December 13, 2019 by DavePhelps

[John E Davies]

The Christmas F150 television commercial shows a truck with its bed stuffed with wrapped presents. Zoom out and you see the huge flat bed trailer with an enormous Christmas tree lashed on it.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/dP7l/ford-built-for-the-holidays-sales-event-bring-the-tree-t1#

What they do NOT show is that there is only one person in the truck, which I suspect is a stripped 2wd long bed, and all those pretty boxes are empty.

It is highly deceptive and oh so typical. 

And if you read the comments below, nobody cares, they just want to know the name of the song...

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited December 13, 2019 by John E Davies

[donthompson]

I recently purchased a lightly used 2019 Ram Rebel to tow my soon to be delivered Conqueror UEV 490 Extreme.  I used the tool on the RAM website using my VIN to obtain the towing and cargo capacities.  11,470 lbs. towing and 1,970 payload.  The sticker for the tires says 1,682 lbs. payload with E rated tires.  Not sure which payload number is correct, but either way, I’ll have plenty of capacity for my travels—almost always solo and I travel light.

[Mike and Carol]

12 hours ago, donthompson said:

I recently purchased a lightly used 2019 Ram Rebel to tow my soon to be delivered Conqueror UEV 490 Extreme.  I used the tool on the RAM website using my VIN to obtain the towing and cargo capacities.  11,470 lbs. towing and 1,970 payload.  The sticker for the tires says 1,682 lbs. payload with E rated tires.  Not sure which payload number is correct, but either way, I’ll have plenty of capacity for my travels—almost always solo and I travel light.

That’s interesting. I wonder if the quad cab long bed is configured that much differently than the crew cab short bed. 

[donthompson]

BTW, I love the truck. 

[jo79RI]

I had hoped a 2500  half ton would be OK for the Elite II.  I hate to have to go to a 3/4 ton!

[Mike and Carol]

1 hour ago, jo79RI said:

I had hoped a 2500  half ton would be OK for the Elite II.  I hate to have to go to a 3/4 ton!

My Ram 1500 has been a good tow vehicle.  Half tons will work.

[Mike and Carol]

On 12/12/2019 at 7:06 PM, DavePhelps said:

Well it depends on how much you take with you and what accessories you have loaded on to your truck. For example, for my still unpurchased new truck, I use this personal list:

Elite 1 tongue weight: 450 lbs (the Elite 2 is around 600 lbs for most I believe)
2 adult passengers: 300 lbs (generous for us wee folk)
Truck topper on the back: 200 lbs
Spray in bed liner and a mat: 100 lbs (guessing here)
Canoe and rack on top: 50 lbs

So adding all this up, before I have even put any cargo in the truck, I have accumulated  1100 lbs of payload weight! With the Elite 2, I would have 1250 lbs.

This is how fast payload adds up, and each person needs to do an assessment of their particular needs and weights. Adding higher load rated tires, or airbags, or other "load enhancement" devices will not increase your payload capacity as it is written on the sticker of your door jamb.

How does a WDH affect payload capacity, if at all?  If I have 600 lbs of tongue weight and use the Andersen hitch, does any of the “weight distribution” affect the cargo number?

[Galway Girl]

WDH transfers some  % of the trailer tongue weight forward to the front axle of the tow vehicle and some %  of that tongue weight back to the trailer axles.   So using the WDH  gives you back some of the dead tongue wt. that you can use as cargo weight. 

In addition the WDH helps recover some of the 'rise' that happens to the front of the truck when you drop the trailer on the hitch. 
Normally the instructions for WDH's say to adjust the hitch so 1/2 of the total rise on the front fenders is recovered.   
For example if you drop the loaded trailer on the truck, and the front fenders raise 2", then they want you to try and adjust the WDH so you get back to only 1" rise on the front.  This also gives you back load for steering control.

Second - it's important to note that the physical receiver hitch assembly on the tow vehicle typically has has a rating for both "WITH" and Without a weight distribution hitch.

For most Elite II's the loaded tongue wt will be >600 lbs...and in the case of my specific F150 hitch sticker...that means I must use a wt. distribution hitch as the "dead weight" it can carry in "WEIGHT Carrying Mode" is 500 lbs.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by ctshort09

[John E Davies]

4 hours ago, Mike and Carol said:

How does a WDH affect payload capacity, if at all?  If I have 600 lbs of tongue weight and use the Andersen hitch, does any of the “weight distribution” affect the cargo number?

This question is what the Brits called a “sticky wicket”. It is controversial. In theory, a percentage of the TW is transferred back to the trailer axles. How much will show up when you weigh your rig with no spring tension, immediately followed by re-weighing with spring tension. The difference, if any, should be obvious. Can somebody predict exactly how much? I doubt it.

You should never rely on lightening the load in the TV by using a WD hitch, if you are that close to maxxing it out, or are over it, you need to either leave some stuff at home or buy a stouter vehicle.

An Anderson does very well in two out of three functions. It stops sway (which isn’t generally applicable to most Ollies anyway), and deadens bounce really really well, but in my experience it is not actually that good at redistributing weight, compared to a big clunky spring bar system. 
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/weight-distribution-and-payload-ratings-160733.html

Great question, it really deserves its own thread. I am sure others would like to comment.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by John E Davies

[Mike and Carol]

3 hours ago, John E Davies said:

This question is what the Brits called a “sticky wicket”. It is controversial.

 

Indeed.  It’s interesting that dealers are all over the map on weight.  Throw in a WDH and there’s some wavering in what they say.  My current Ram 2016 1500 does a fine job, and this 2020 Rebel should as well, it’s just hard to nail down the truth!

[Landrover]

Not to make it a sore subject. Oliver does the same thing they claim (approximate) dry weight of 4600lbs my LE II unit came in at 5200lbs with options. 4600lbs may be a true statement.  I don’t think they have had one come off the line. Weighing 4600lbs. Same With the trucks, what is claimed and real world are two different things its all in what the Consumers wants  to see, so the factory/ dealers can make more sales. It’s all about the money.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Landrover

[BackofBeyond]

7 hours ago, John E Davies said:

You should never rely on lightening the load in the TV by using a WD hitch, if you are that close to maxxing it out, or are over it, you need to either leave some stuff at home or buy a stouter vehicle.

An Anderson does very well in two out of three functions. It stops sway (which isn’t generally applicable to most Ollies anyway), and deadens bounce really really well, but in my experience it is not actually that good at redistributing weight, compared to a big clunky spring bar system. 
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/weight-distribution-and-payload-ratings-160733.html

Great question, it really deserves its own thread. I am sure others would like to comment.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

There are many people that tow  - very satisfactorily, with a modern 1/2 ton pick-up or similar vehicle, and I would guess all (most) use the Anderson WDH. It's a good set-up, but the sticky wicket is indeed the payload in many cases. The WDH doesn't change the brake systems ability to stop an overloaded vehicle, it may help redistribute the load rear to front, but that's hard to pin down.  

To say  Oliver is less than honest on claimed dry weight, well, have at it.  I give them more credit. 

Dealers don't determine payloads, GVWR, tow ratings or anything else, that's the responsibility  of the OEM engineering groups in conjunction with industry standards. The data on an  individual vehicles sticker is the rating for that vehicle, in most cases it trumps what's stated the in the owners manual, what some app on the web tells you, what the marketing folks say, and what a salesman tells you. Dealers will tell you whatever you want to hear, caveat emptor.

Bottom line - follow the guidelines for your particular vehicle, if your happy, great.  If your over weight, above the recommended capacities, and yet satisfied  with the performance, that is your call. 

Everyone have a wonderful Holiday, be safe, have a great time. 

 

 

 

[ScubaRx]

GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is usually easy to ascertain for a given vehicle.  It's generally on a sticker inside the driver's door.

CCC (Cargo Carrying Capacity) seems to be a bit harder to determine. Depending on factory options that came with the vehicle, that value could go up or down. Plus, if you've added several thousand pounds of "permanent" options (bumpers, toppers, bed slides) that comes out of the total also.

OK, I think (hope) I already know the answer but here's the question.

Wouldn't the easiest way to make sure you're not overloaded be to just weight the tow vehicle in its loaded, ready to travel state and make sure that it's under the GVWR?  I realize that tongue weight has to be counted also.

[John E Davies]

1 hour ago, ScubaRx said:

Wouldn't the easiest way to make sure you're not overloaded be to just weight the tow vehicle in its loaded, ready to travel state and make sure that it's under the GVWR?  I realize that tongue weight has to be counted also.

Visiting a scale gives you real world figures, no doubt about it. OTH it is a bit of a pain and I would bet that most people never do it. I personally have stopped on "closed" truck scales along the freeway to read my own axle weights by looking through the office window, perhaps twice in 40 years..... I have never done it officially.

If you have even a vague idea of what your stuff weighs, you don't need to scale weigh the rig.... it's just simple addition. Individually weighing parts of your truck using a bathroom scale, and stuff on your trailer, is sometimes eye opening. The two Third Row jump seats I permanently removed weigh 85 pounds, which happens to be the exact weight of the gennie I carry back there. The middle seats are even heavier but I rarely disturb them.

My old Series 80 with lots of off-roady parts had an extra 600 pounds of stuff inside and out..... I try really hard to keep the 200 as svelte as possible.

FYI I think a tongue weight scale (mine is a Sherline 1000 pound one) is a very important tool, one that most owner should use (or borrow). Unless they have a HD pickup, in which case it isn't essential for an Ollie, it just provides useful information...

John Davies
Spokane WA

Edited December 18, 2019 by John E Davies

[bugeyedriver]

On 12/16/2019 at 3:09 PM, Mike and Carol said:

 My current Ram 2016 1500 does a fine job . . .

Looks like THIS will be all you need, then.   It certainly is more cost effective.

Edited December 18, 2019 by bugeyedriver

[Mike and Carol]

9 hours ago, bugeyedriver said:

Looks like THIS will be all you need, then.   It certainly is more cost effective.

Priceless!

[Mike and Carol]

OK.  My itch is gone.  I bought a Rebel, cargo weight on tire sticker is 1394 lbs, up from the ll65 lbs of the previous Rebel I was looking at.  Had to forego a few options, mainly the multifunction tailgate.  As it turns out, options are heavy.  The math says I will be at or under that 1394 lbs when I’m packed for camping with Ollie attached.  Mike

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Mike and Carol

[John E Davies]

55 minutes ago, Mike and Carol said:

OK.  My itch is gone.  I bought a Rebel, cargo weight on tire sticker is 1394 lbs, up from the ll65 lbs of the previous Rebel I was looking at.  Had to forego a few options, mainly the multifunction tailgate.  As it turns out, options are heavy.  The math says I will be at or under that 1394 lbs when I’m packed for camping with Ollie attached.  Mike

That is a beauty. Did you get the standard or eTorque Hemi? 

Post some pics with your trailer attached please.

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited December 21, 2019 by John E Davies

[SeaDawg]

Sweet looking truck!

[topgun2]

Carol sure is going to be looking good in that truck - you, not so much.  I've always been interested in how those fender boxes work in real life.  Seems that they would be very handy.  Just who gets the job of keeping that nice dark paint clean?

Bill