Freezing Rear Water Lines

[bugeyedriver]

In The Wonder Egg, a  2008 Elite, I installed of two Xtreme bilge heaters between the shells in the rear of the trailer. One protects the water pump and the other protects the water lines near the outside shower.  They both protect the water tanks. The heaters turn on as the temp dips below  40° and turn off as it rises above 55°.  The initial amperage draw is 8.2A for one second and 4A for operation.  It required the addition of two 110v outlets between the hulls and they only operational when I'm hooked up to a power pole or running a generator.   I mounted them on firm, yet flexible rubber mats which enables me to easily position them where needed and stops them from tipping over in transit.

[SeaDawg]

4 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

So, you pull into gas stations with propane-burning appliances, like the absorption fridge and the furnace, running?

It's not on the gas pump side.

Some people go into the trailer, turn off the fridge, in an abundance of caution, and turn it back on after leaving the pump.

It's not an open pilot flame, like the old days. It's electronic ignition,  doesn't run all the time. And, as stated before, opposite side if the trailer. Furnace is also opposite side of the trailer, for us. 

I've never run with the furnace going, as we winterize if we think lines will freeze.

 

[Rivernerd]

1 hour ago, SeaDawg said:

It's not on the gas pump side.

That depends on which side the gas tank of your tow vehicle is on:  driver or passenger.  Our Tundra tow vehicle has a gas tank on the driver side.  Our Subaru Outback's gas tank is on the passenger side.

Oliver strongly recommends running an absorption fridge only on DC when on the road.  I expect this is because a possible ignition while in a gas station could have a very bad result.  It would arguably be like smoking at a gas station. 

Does anyone know Oliver's position on running the furnace while on the road?

[Mike and Carol]

19 minutes ago, Rivernerd said:

That depends on which side the gas tank of your tow vehicle is on:  driver or passenger.  Our Tundra tow vehicle has a gas tank on the driver side.  Our Subaru Outback's gas tank is on the passenger side.

The four trucks I’ve used over the years to pull my Oliver have all had the fuel fill on the drivers side while my Audi S3 has it on the passenger side.  

[Mcb]

8 hours ago, GAP said:

I think it's super important for winter campers to remember that there is a substantial part of the water system that is, as far as has been discussed on the forums, still vulnerable to freezing even after the 2023 model year improvements.  The area where the lines running through my garage in rear of the belly has consistently dropped below freezing when outside temps are still in the mid teens.  This is even though I made all the same alterations on return ducts that Oliver has plus the mod to heat feeds coming from the furnace as described in "More Airflow In Bathroom".  As previously shared in this chain, while camping, the rest of the belly remained comfortably above freezing when outside temps dropped to -5 but that rearward compartment ended up with plumbing exposed temps in the mid 20s.  

The reason I started this thread was to share what I found about this vulnerability and to ask if anybody has found a workaround.  Circling back to that question here.  Any insight would be much appreciated.  

I’m not sure what I did to help deal with the potential freezing of this pipes in the garage is a good idea or not, and since I’m not out playing in the same cold temps you are it may not apply…but.. what I did was to cut a “hatch” through the floor of the garage area under the rubber mat that allows me to access the pipes and fittings. This gives me the ability to stuff “handwarmers” under the floor on top of and around the pipes. I haven’t set up sensors and have no idea as to the efficiency of such a strategy but my pipes haven’t frozen yet, and maybe it might help you out in a pinch.

I also built a sort of insulation “block” which fits very tightly over the city water and fresh water intakes, as I worried about those fixtures, and figures it might help out with those pipes located just inside.

 

 

[SeaDawg]

4 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

6 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

It's not on the gas pump side.

That depends on which side the gas tank of your tow vehicle is on:  driver or passenger.  Our Tundra tow vehicle has a gas tank on the driver side.  Our Subaru Outback's gas tank is on the passenger side.

Oliver strongly recommends running an absorption fridge only on DC when on the road.  I expect this is because a possible ignition while in a gas station could have a very bad result.  It would arguably be like smoking at a gas station. 

Does anyone know Oliver's position on running the furnace while on the road?

Like every other manufacturer,  the lawyers tell them to recommend dc, I'm sure.

Real life, most of us with 3 ways run on gas. We always did. 

Furnace? Probably same. You're on your own.

[ScubaRx]

All this is like the “rule” that you can’t utilize the rear jacks to lift the side of your trailer completely off the ground when that capability used to be a major selling point. If you knew the real reason behind their change of heart, you’d be flabbergasted. Come by at the rally in May and I’ll fill you in on the details. 
 

We’ve been sitting at Dome Rock for a week now with both port side tires a couple of inches off the ground, held up by only the jack and, as far as I know, the earth is still spinning around the sun at about 18 miles a second with no ill effects so far. I’ll update you here if anything untoward happens. 

[johnwen]

4 minutes ago, ScubaRx said:

All this is like the “rule” that you can’t utilize the rear jacks to lift the side of your trailer completely off the ground when that capability used to be a major selling point. If you knew the real reason behind their change of heart, you’d be flabbergasted. Come by at the rally in May and I’ll fill you in on the details. 
 

We’ve been sitting at Dome Rock for a week now with both port side tires a couple of inches off the ground, held up by only the jack and, as far as I know, the earth is still spinning around the sun at about 18 miles a second with no ill effects so far. I’ll update you here if anything untoward happens. 

Hope to be there in a week :) 

[ScubaRx]

1 minute ago, johnwen said:

Hope to be there in a week 🙂

We’ll still be here (33.64244° N, 114.30655° W) if the crick don’t rise. 😃

[bugeyedriver]

2 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

We’ve been sitting at Dome Rock for a week now with both port side tires a couple of inches off the ground, held up by only the jack and, as far as I know, the earth is still spinning around the sun at about 18 miles a second with no ill effects so far. I’ll update you here if anything untoward happens. 

Well, dang! I've been wondering why my inner ear vestibular system has been just a smidge off lately and now I know.  

[mossemi]

@ScubaRx

Didn’t you move your water supply lines from the rear wall of the basement to a mid cabin location behind the fresh/grey water tanks when you completed your recent plumbing mods?  That seems like a location less susceptible to cold weather events.

Mossey

[dewdev]

10 hours ago, ScubaRx said:

We’ll still be here (33.64244° N, 114.30655° W) if the crick don’t rise. 😃

Steve:

It would be great to see some pictures of that area, maybe in the Campgrounds and Parks section.

[topgun2]

3 hours ago, dewdev said:

It would be great to see some pictures of that area, maybe in the Campgrounds and Parks section.

That's easy - 

Simply "copy" the coordinates above, then go to Google Maps and "paste" the coordinates in the "search box" and hit the enter key.

A regular street map will first come up - click on that to enlarge the map.  A larger map will come up and look to the left side of the screen and there will be a box that says "layers".  Click on that box and the overhead satellite view will come up and you can zoom in or zoom out as you need by clicking on the + and - arrows

Steve's trailer is not in this view - he must have run into town!😇

Bill 

Or - click on THIS

[Chukarhunter]

Those of us that occasionally or frequently encounter very cold weather when pursuing our passions with our Oliver can benefit immensely from the experiences and insights of others on this forum.  Those that never do, or that always winterize, probably don't care as much, especially those that never boondock.  Let's face it, if you have full hookups, you can put two electric space heaters in the basement and run the propane furnace at 70 and not worry.  Absent shore power, cold weather can be stressful.  

I would like to see the Moderators expand the category of "Oliver Boondocking" and call it "Oliver Boondocking and Cold Weather Camping" so those of use that do find ourselves in frequently in cold weather and unwinterized can share our questions and insights in one place.  I have spent over two years trying to figure out the eccentricities of the Oliver when it comes to balancing temperatures throughout the trailer in cold weather and I wouldn't trade my Oliver for anything else.  However, what I have learned or not learned can't be shared in one giant post.  And I haven't figured it all out either. 

After two years of moving remote wifi temperature sensors around to different places, changing out the thermostat, and opening different pathways for return air to enter the basement, I have learned a lot.  Importantly, I have come to the tentative conclusion that the biggest reason that the basement temps  can drop so far below the cabin temp in places is due to the fresh water tank.  Heat travels through water 20 times faster than it does through air.  Conventional wisdom would say that the fresh water tank would act like a hot water bottle to help keep the basement warm.  However, the fresh water tank in the Oliver appears to sit on a rubber mat on the floor of the basement and that creates a direct coupled path for the heat in the water tank to be lost through the bottom of the trailer at a rate up to 20 times faster than heat is lost through the rest of the shell.  This sucks heat out of the basement faster than the furnace can replace it.  Even a small air gap under the fresh water tank would slow this heat loss dramatically.  Unfortunately, insulating under the fresh water tank is not an option for us, although Oliver should consider doing something like it in future builds.

The rapid heat loss from the fresh water tank could explain why the basement temperatures drop so much compared to cabin temperatures, unless the furnace runs constantly.  I am wondering if it would help to add  2 inch or 3 inch rigid pink foam panels to the underside of the trailer between the ribs of the frame to reduce the heat loss from the fresh water tank.  Am I crazy?

[topgun2]

Chukarhunter

I think that there are three things in your post.

1.  While I don't normally camp in the winter season, I have encountered winter conditions during the "summer" months.  80 degrees during the day and mid to high 20's and snow at night while at altitude in the western mountains.  By having a category called Boondocking it includes (hopefully) all those things that one might experience when camping off-grid, including cold weather.

2.  You have an interesting thought on the location/insulation of the fresh water tank.  Since it is a distinct possibility that your suggestions in this regard would not be seen here by the appropriate people at Oliver, have you sent an email/letter to Oliver specifically suggesting this?

3.  I too have thought about the addition of foam panels on the underside of my Oliver.  If it weren't for the vanity of dealing with how it might look, I probably would have already tried this mod.  I have stuffed insulation into just about any place I could think of and/or reach between the two shells though.  There is a YouTuber named "Slim Potato Head" that has a single shell molded fiberglass camper.  Last year he did this mod to his camper and the finished product really didn't look too bad.  In any case - I'm a big fan of more insulation from both heat and cold.

Bill

[Rivernerd]

11 hours ago, Chukarhunter said:

I am wondering if it would help to add  2 inch or 3 inch rigid pink foam panels to the underside of the trailer between the ribs of the frame to reduce the heat loss from the fresh water tank.  Am I crazy?

You are not crazy.  As an alternative to pink XPS foam, you could consider 2" foil-faced polyisocyanurate foam board.  It has a higher R value than XPS, and the foil facing should blend in better cosmetically with the aluminum-and-white Oliver under belly.

If you do add foam to the underbelly, please report your results, including how you installed it.

[GAP]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:46 PM, Mcb said:

I’m not sure what I did to help deal with the potential freezing of this pipes in the garage is a good idea or not, and since I’m not out playing in the same cold temps you are it may not apply…but.. what I did was to cut a “hatch” through the floor of the garage area under the rubber mat that allows me to access the pipes and fittings. This gives me the ability to stuff “handwarmers” under the floor on top of and around the pipes. I haven’t set up sensors and have no idea as to the efficiency of such a strategy but my pipes haven’t frozen yet, and maybe it might help you out in a pinch.

I also built a sort of insulation “block” which fits very tightly over the city water and fresh water intakes, as I worried about those fixtures, and figures it might help out with those pipes located just inside.

 

 

I'm like the idea of tossing in handwarmers but, on trips as long as we take, it would get costly.  I've stipped out the flimsy wall and floor and now that I have a clear view of where the runs run, am developing a strategy.  Currently torn between using heat tape between the lines surrounds by insulation or running either 2" semi rigid duct or 1" electrical conduit (doubling as duct).  

Love your approach to protecting the inlets.  You've inspired me to consider doing something similar with a hollowed out round block of closed cell foam and a pipe clamp or bunji to secure.  Thanks on that.

[GAP]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:52 AM, Chukarhunter said:

Those of us that occasionally or frequently encounter very cold weather when pursuing our passions with our Oliver can benefit immensely from the experiences and insights of others on this forum.  Those that never do, or that always winterize, probably don't care as much, especially those that never boondock.  Let's face it, if you have full hookups, you can put two electric space heaters in the basement and run the propane furnace at 70 and not worry.  Absent shore power, cold weather can be stressful.  

I would like to see the Moderators expand the category of "Oliver Boondocking" and call it "Oliver Boondocking and Cold Weather Camping" so those of use that do find ourselves in frequently in cold weather and unwinterized can share our questions and insights in one place.  I have spent over two years trying to figure out the eccentricities of the Oliver when it comes to balancing temperatures throughout the trailer in cold weather and I wouldn't trade my Oliver for anything else.  However, what I have learned or not learned can't be shared in one giant post.  And I haven't figured it all out either. 

After two years of moving remote wifi temperature sensors around to different places, changing out the thermostat, and opening different pathways for return air to enter the basement, I have learned a lot.  Importantly, I have come to the tentative conclusion that the biggest reason that the basement temps  can drop so far below the cabin temp in places is due to the fresh water tank.  Heat travels through water 20 times faster than it does through air.  Conventional wisdom would say that the fresh water tank would act like a hot water bottle to help keep the basement warm.  However, the fresh water tank in the Oliver appears to sit on a rubber mat on the floor of the basement and that creates a direct coupled path for the heat in the water tank to be lost through the bottom of the trailer at a rate up to 20 times faster than heat is lost through the rest of the shell.  This sucks heat out of the basement faster than the furnace can replace it.  Even a small air gap under the fresh water tank would slow this heat loss dramatically.  Unfortunately, insulating under the fresh water tank is not an option for us, although Oliver should consider doing something like it in future builds.

The rapid heat loss from the fresh water tank could explain why the basement temperatures drop so much compared to cabin temperatures, unless the furnace runs constantly.  I am wondering if it would help to add  2 inch or 3 inch rigid pink foam panels to the underside of the trailer between the ribs of the frame to reduce the heat loss from the fresh water tank.  Am I crazy?

My take is on why the basement and garage areas are so much colder is because they are insulated by just a single fiberglass shell covered with a layer of reflectix which is less than ideal.  I'm sure the tank can transmit cold  but not at the rate suggested above.  The conditions that cause water to lose heat at 20 times faster than air is caused by evaporative heat loss.  I agree fully that the tanks should be better insulated from the cold outer shell but feel that if the basement was kept at a reasonable temp (let'd say 45 degrees) it would take a lot to cause the water in the tank to actually be in danger of freezing.  

Your thoughts on adding rigid insulation boards to the belly is something I've been toying with for a while.  I was considering running a test with a piece of that material to see how it responds to contact cement and spray adhesive.  I assume those adhesives would cause the board to "melt" so would not be workable.  2" velcroe with good double stick tape may work but would really want to test as dropping a board on the highway could cause a sad faced story.  I do feel that in general, Olivers could really use an upgrade in approach to insulation.  The few ideas I've had to improve seem unworkable.  One was to have company spray adhesive foam between the shells.  Easy to snake feed tubes in just about anywhere but what happens if an electric connection is dislodged or a future repair/mod needs to be done?  Also, the insulation itself needs to be water and mold resistant or I'd be writing another story with a rough ending.

[Jason Essary]

I have had a few questions regarding 4-Season camping with the Oliver and wanted to make a post so it would be available for everyone.

What is 4-Season camping? It simply means that the Oliver is capable of being used through all 4-seasons. It does not mean that it will necessarily have no freeze issues in certain areas during certain climates. This is no different than a house. Here in Tennessee we recently saw sub-zero temperatures and many people had their water lines freeze and burst causing lots of damage. Does that mean that their house is not capable of being used during the winter? No, it simply means that in certain temperatures you may need to make arrangements to combat the temperature. In the past I have had my water lines freeze that were located on an exterior wall of my house so this time when they said we would see sub-zero temperatures I placed a space heater on that wall area to help keep it warmer and the next morning I had no freeze damage. 

Below is an average winter temperature for the United States however this is just an average and when temperatures go below the average especially when going into the low single digits or below zero, whether in a camper or a house you may have to perform steps to ensure freeze damage does not occur. 

 

[GAP]

22 hours ago, JEssary said:

I have had a few questions regarding 4-Season camping with the Oliver and wanted to make a post so it would be available for everyone.

What is 4-Season camping? It simply means that the Oliver is capable of being used through all 4-seasons. It does not mean that it will necessarily have no freeze issues in certain areas during certain climates. This is no different than a house. Here in Tennessee we recently saw sub-zero temperatures and many people had their water lines freeze and burst causing lots of damage. Does that mean that their house is not capable of being used during the winter? No, it simply means that in certain temperatures you may need to make arrangements to combat the temperature. In the past I have had my water lines freeze that were located on an exterior wall of my house so this time when they said we would see sub-zero temperatures I placed a space heater on that wall area to help keep it warmer and the next morning I had no freeze damage. 

Below is an average winter temperature for the United States however this is just an average and when temperatures go below the average especially when going into the low single digits or below zero, whether in a camper or a house you may have to perform steps to ensure freeze damage does not occur. 

 

I don't wish to stick my head in a guillotine nor to contradict Jason who has been great to work with but in posting here he is, to some degree, responding to a ticket conversation I've been having with him recently.  In fact, I pointed out the threads, including links to this post, where winter capacity was being discussed.  While Oliver may have intended to apply the interpretation above to what "4 Season" means, that term is used to describe equipment that is meant to be used in full on winter conditions.  Sleeping bags, tents, parkas, etc... described with that term are being sold as being appropriate for frigid conditions.  In housing, it marks the difference between a seasonal and year-round place. Virtually all trailers that offer heat, including those that are much less expensive than Olivers, will work fine in these winter as long as you don't employ their water systems.  In the name of transparency and fairness, if Oliver meant something more like "4 Season In Tennessee",  it should have been spelled this out clearly in their marketing  materials.

4 Season is not a bottomless pit meaning that no one expected these trailers to be able to handle insanely cold conditions when ordered.  That said, my salesperson claimed that there were folks living comfortably in non winterized stock trailers in Alaska which according to my pretty extensive testing - around 2 month's so far of winter dry camping taking temps all over the belly - is simply not possible.  This claim was repeated to me again by someone responding to a ticket just two weeks ago.  I requested, in both cases, to be put in touch with these owners and never received a response.  My results have show that there are areas of the basement/garage with water lines that will be exposed to temps below freezing with the cabin heat at 70 when outside is in the mid teens or even low 20s if daytime temps stay below freezing.  These are temperatures that are not un-common during the winter in most states including parts California and Texas and sometimes, even in Tennessee. 

Bottom line is that we love our trailer but feel that,  We feel that in both indirect and very direct ways, it's capacity to be used in winter was exagerated.  Jason is a super knowledgable, straight shooter and the company has been good to deal with but this particular situation has been a disappointment to us. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - right? Most Oliver owners, including us, bought theirs primarily for the superior quality with the vast majority having no interest in camping in below freezing temperatures.  I'm sure most will disagree with my stance here but, I felt obliged to share a point of view from someone who is a frequent cold weather camper. 

Let my beatings begin.  

[Rivernerd]

I wonder if the folks who use Oliver trailers in the winter in Alaska are limiting themselves to campgrounds with shore power, where they can use space heaters to warm vulnerable areas of the trailer as Jason suggests in his post above?  Or if boondocking, whether they are running generators to power space heaters whenever ambient temps are below freezing?

Oliver is not the only travel trailer that is marketed as a "4-Season" solution.  Are there other "4-Season" trailers on the market that can be used un-winterized when boondocking, without modification, and without external power for space heaters?

 

[Mike and Carol]

4 hours ago, GAP said:

Let my beatings begin.  

I’m not sure where we’re going with this discussion.  Are you saying that Oliver should not advertise their trailers as four season?  We’ve had our trailer 7 years and I’ve never winterized.  We camp year round and have had plenty of camping with temps in the 20s and a lot of camping in the teens.  No issues. To me, that’s a four season camper.  We don’t camp in single digits or below zero.  To me that is an extreme weather camper.

I’ve had the basement partitions out of the trailer and have seen the water lines that run behind the basement on the floor of the outer shell.  They just lay on top of the insulation.  I’ve considered wrapping those lines with insulation, but it is not a high priority because we’ve not had any issues with them freezing.  

A very gentle beating😊….  Mike

[Guest]

I believe most of the post on this thread, and similar treads covering this topic, have had valid points. Living in Idaho, I do wish there were options offered by Oliver to beef up the winter capabilities. Many “four season” camping structures have heated basements. We had a larger slide in (Host) with a very large storage area under the living surface and that area was heated. We never had to worry and sub freezing temperatures. It would be nice if Oliver had a heat vent for the subfloor/storage areas and maybe even an option for beefed up insulation.
I found a 4 inch fan with a thermostat. I have to verify the thermostat can control temperatures down in the 40s (it is made for growers), if it can, I want to pull heated air from the living space on the curb side and allow it to circulate through the basement and into the street side storage, allowing it to vent out from the bathroom near the sink. The fan only pulls 18 watts max and can move 160 cubic per minute of air. I’m not sure how well the results will be for the farthest area (the bathroom) but I’m curious to find out. 
Kirk 

[GAP]

18 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

I wonder if the folks who use Oliver trailers in the winter in Alaska are limiting themselves to campgrounds with shore power, where they can use space heaters to warm vulnerable areas of the trailer as Jason suggests in his post above?  Or if boondocking, whether they are running generators to power space heaters whenever ambient temps are below freezing?

Oliver is not the only travel trailer that is marketed as a "4-Season" solution.  Are there other "4-Season" trailers on the market that can be used un-winterized when boondocking, without modification, and without external power for space heaters?

 

I'm none to well versed but, in my research before buying our Oliver and since, I've not found a trailer that does clearly better than ours, except for bigger models that have ducted heat to their basements and/or heat tape as standard features.  The Escape Trailers from Canada seem to do about as well if you opt for their spray on insulation sealing of their bellies. They are described as 3.5 season trailers.  That said, not of the same quality build. My brother owns a brandy new Airstream which is about the same size as an E2 and he claims they can now be set up for full on winter use but has not been able to test that out and I haven't bothered to dig into their forum. I'd argue, based on their forum, that they are not of the same quality as Oliver either.

RVs.even smaller ones, are often good for winter camping.

Given the increased popularity of winter camping I am puzzled by there not being more options.  With my last modification ( to be tested starting next week) I feel my E2 will be good down to 0.  Have tested in those condition quite a few times - am close to done.  It was a lot of work but only cause I had partial guidance (limited but top shelf through this forum), am not handy and don't have an engineering brain so had to go slow and there was a learning curve.  These mods were relatively cheap and straightforward to do so certainly not impossible.

 

[rich.dev]

33 minutes ago, GAP said:

These mods were relatively cheap and straightforward to do so certainly not impossible.

Sorry if I missed it but do you have a link to your winter mods?
Thanks, 
Rich