Oliver Lithium Pro Package

[hardrock]

If Lithium ion batteries with 400 AHs are installed on a Elite II and the air conditioner runs down the batteries half way or more, how many hours will it take to recharge the batteries to full capacity using the standard Zamp solar configuration?   

This is not intended to be a trick question or self promoting.  My point is one of the key elements , recharging the batteries in minimum time has not been discussed.  Recharging is a key factor in the solution equation.  I am interested in your input as I try to understand increasing the efficiency of using solar to recharge the batteries.

  I have seen many big pushers with the rooftop loaded with solar panels and a huge storage areas fully dedicated to batteries and electronics.  The wind drag of the solar panels, the extraordinary weight of the extra equipment and significant loss of fuel efficiency outweighs the benefit of solar, especially when those rigs deplete their batteries and then crank up their diesel generators to run all night. 

Coy

[hobo]

On 5/28/2020 at 3:35 PM, SeaDawg said:

Love the gif. Pass the popcorn.

Tests have been done in Australia on far more efficient ac units than the Dometic units available to the US. and, we've all seen Overland's experiment. Will it run ac? Sure. How long....

However,  I'm really glad Oliver is getting into lithium. Maybe then, they'll offer a dc danfoss compressor refrigerator . 😄

Sherry

I was in Hohenwald a couple of days ago and they said the lithium batteries would run the AC for about 5 hours.  Not sure what the upcharge is for lithium but if it won't get me through a single night, then why bother?

       

 

 

 

[Overland]

9 hours ago, hardrock said:

If Lithium ion batteries with 400 AHs are installed on a Elite II and the air conditioner runs down the batteries half way or more, how many hours will it take to recharge the batteries to full capacity using the standard Zamp solar configuration?  

This is the chart I made for our system.  Divide by 2 for a typical Ollie setup:

So, yeah.  Realistically, if we're talking 300Ah of batteries and people people freak when their batteries hit 50%, we're talking about an hour and a half of AC use.  In most situations, once you include your other uses, the average Ollie owner could plan on the better part of two days of sunlight to recoup that.  Average - if it's truly mid summer, four corners, zero clouds, you could possibly get it back in a day.  If it's cloudy, might be three.

I've said many times - it's not magic.  AC units have tremendous appetites and solar output is one of the most exaggerated topics in the RV world, both from dealers and owners.  

Solar is great, LFP is great, but there's a reason my trailer looks like an aircraft carrier.  

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Overland

[GarryandKristi]

On 5/30/2020 at 7:01 PM, SeaDawg said:

I politely disagree. That you can run the ac off lithium, even for an hour, is far more than I can do with two group 27 agms.

He never said you could run it 24/7. And, I'm sure there will be qualifiers. 

Amps to amps, useable, if I  replaced my agms with lithium, I  could safely discharge to 90 per cent. I try to  keep my discharge at 25 per cent on agms, to extend the life. Even if I go to 50 per cent on deep cycle agms, I would double my capacity with lithium.

I work with lithium at the house. I won't upgrade my agms in the trailer til my agms die, but oh, I would love to. In my little trailer, I  doubt  3 would fit in the tray. But, even two would really expand my battery power.

Everything comes with a price.  In the case of lithium batteries,  it's a sizable one. I wouldn't opt for them, unless you were like us, camping off grid, virtually all the time. If you have access to power cords most of the time, fla or agm is fine, cheaper, and quite efficient. Imo. 

Edited to add, we rarely use ac, because we can't,  without power cord. What would be great for me, is being able to run my fridge, charge phones, and use an inverter to run an induction hotplate from my battery.

Everything changes. Evolution.

Sherry

Actually I misspoke. Our inverter only serves the outlets so even if I wanted to run AC with batteries and inverter I couldn’t.  Maybe other configurations have different circuits served by the inverter. That is ok with me - we have the AGMs but I would not want to run the AC if dry camping because I would want to save the battery capacity for other things.  If I wanted to run AC without shore power I would run it with a generator. We don’t have solar. Increased battery capacity is nice - I just don’t see it as a solution to running AC in normal situations 

[Mrfleck]

They just sent me the new build sheet and it has this for Lithium:

LITHIUM PRO PACKAGE - SAVE $498 • Two LifeBlue Lithium Batteries (400 AH total) • 340 Watt Solar Panels with Charge Controller • Micro-Air Easy Start • 3000 Watt Xantrex Inverter $8999.00

[Overland]

I'm not surprised at the price.  FWIW, that's about $500 more than what my system would have cost had I opted for the standard solar setup, which was three years ago, and I did all the work.  I think my Victron kit is better; but as far as features go, Oliver's offering seems about on par, so it seems like a fair enough price.

Before anyone flips about the $9000 price tag, you have to compare the cost relative to what you'd otherwise pay Oliver for the AGM upgrade, solar, and inverter - and I might argue also another $1500+ for a generator, gen connection, and accessories.  For me at the time, the difference in cost was only ~$2000, which after tax rebates ended up just shy of $1000.  I'm curious what that calculation would be now.

With that much LFP storage, Oliver's solar offering is anaemic, which is why I only say you might be able to live without a generator.  With 200w of portable panels, then I'd say yes.

And yes, 5 hours of AC use is a fairy tale.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Overland

[Landrover]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

I'm not surprised at the price.  FWIW, that's about $500 more than what my system would have cost had I opted for the standard solar setup, which was three years ago, and I did all the work.  I think my Victron kit is better; but as far as features go, Oliver's offering seems about on par, so it seems like a fair enough price.

Before anyone flips about the $9000 price tag, you have to compare the cost relative to what you'd otherwise pay Oliver for the AGM upgrade, solar, and inverter - and I might argue also another $1500+ for a generator, gen connection, and accessories.  For me at the time, the difference in cost was only ~$2000, which after tax rebates ended up just shy of $1000.  I'm curious what that calculation would be now.

With that much LFP storage, Oliver's solar offering is anaemic, which is why I only say you might be able to live without a generator.  With 200w of portable panels, then I'd say yes.

And yes, 5 hours of AC use is a fairy tale.

 

 

I think I’ll keep my dual fuel 3500 watt generator @ $1000,00 and add to that I had my generator for over 3years still like new. So i guess i can buy new every three years for the next 27 years to catch up to that cost. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Landrover

[Mrfleck]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

I'm not surprised at the price.  FWIW, that's about $500 more than what my system would have cost had I opted for the standard solar setup, which was three years ago, and I did all the work.  I think my Victron kit is better; but as far as features go, Oliver's offering seems about on par, so it seems like a fair enough price.

Before anyone flips about the $9000 price tag, you have to compare the cost relative to what you'd otherwise pay Oliver for the AGM upgrade, solar, and inverter - and I might argue also another $1500+ for a generator, gen connection, and accessories.  For me at the time, the difference in cost was only ~$2000, which after tax rebates ended up just shy of $1000.  I'm curious what that calculation would be now.

With that much LFP storage, Oliver's solar offering is anaemic, which is why I only say you might be able to live without a generator.  With 200w of portable panels, then I'd say yes.

And yes, 5 hours of AC use is a fairy tale.

 

 

I would really want double the solar. I think the price is fair. I just can't stand the sound of a generator, even with the quiet versions and hate being that guy when in a campground. I think I would find myself using more 110v resources with some capacity and a good inverter. Most of our campsites in AK have zero hookups, so the more self-contained the better. I am just debating the component quality and if I would want to do some of this on my own. I wish you could get a credit for not having some of it, but having some of the infrastructure in place. 

[mossemi]

2021 Solar Tax Credit 

I think the Micro-Air Easy Start may cost $400 installed, so the rest of the Lithium package that would be eligible for the tax credit would be $8599.

A 2021 22% tax credit would be $1891.78.  Now the Lithium Package is $6707.22 and although I already have my own lithium package, that sounds pretty good to me, if you have a need or desire to go green.

Mossey

[BlueHighways]

We have a contract but are still waiting on our build date.  We already have the EZ start, solar pkg, 2 extra FLA batts, and a 2k inverter. All of that comes to $4850 that we will be spending.  Or, we can add lithium for an extra $4150.

However, buying in 2020, we get a 26% tax credit on the system- $8600 (taking out the ez start) X 26% = $2236.

That makes my over and above costs $1900 for: less or no maintenance, lower weights, longer life, faster charging.

I’ll take that deal*

*if my wife agrees and if this math still works and if I have not missed some important figure 
 

[mossemi]

Good for you all getting the 26% credit by buying this year and I think the LifeBlue are fairly priced at around $1000/100Ah.  Does that extra $4150 include the 3000W inverter?

Mossey

Edited June 18, 2020 by mossemi

[WhatDa]

You still get the credit with the original package, so the gap is a little larger (discount the original package).  I'd want to know what all the other parts and pieces are, or is it the same overall setup with 2x lithium batteries?  

We don't have an inverter or high end batteries - we just had the $250 upgrade that was forced as part of solar as I planned on upgrades.  But so far it hasn't been a barrier as the WiFi ranger, TV, and our computers/cell phones all run off of DC - and typically we use the highest draw items during the day.   All we miss out on are the convection oven and dehumidifier.  For the difference between what I paid and the new package, I imagine AM Solar could install something that does pretty well.  I'd be looking to add panels to the Oliver, my truck's rear deck, and probably a portable panel -- shady/rainy days are more of a problem than battery capacity is - but with 400Ah I could last a few more of them before getting low. 

Buying new, if the gap is really in the 2000-4000$ range, consider that two 200Ah LiFePO4 batteries with installation equipment are easily $4000+ by themselves, I probably would have strongly considered it.

The only next level thing we could hope for from solar, would mean moving to a mini split with the compressor on the tongue or rear bumper (higher efficiency, clears roof), putting panels the entire surface area of the roof, and still aiming for 600+ Ah to run the thing.  

[SeaDawg]

To earn the tax credit, my understanding is that you have to include solar (original or additional. )  So, that's  a consideration,  as well, when determining whether to do the package up front, or upgrade batteries later.

At least, that's what I  read. Batteries later, without additional solar, are not eligible.

Edited June 18, 2020 by SeaDawg

[mossemi]

Sherry,

I would agree with your thinking.

In my case, 1 of my 6v Flooded Lead Acid batteries failed due to what I believe was poor maintenance.  My bad!  Rather than adding 1 new battery to 3 OK batteries, I decided to install 2 Battle Born LiFePo4 batteries. So in order to qualify for the 2020 tax credit I need to add at least 1 solar panel.  I can’t use the portable panel I bought last year.  Again my bad!  So I am also going to upgrade to a MPPT controller and take advantage of the 26% tax credit discount.

So now you know why I can’t afford a piece of Starboard.🙈🙈🙈

Mossey

[SeaDawg]

Solar panels and mppt controllers definitely trump starboard, imo. Though each of them cost a lot more. 

🙀😿🙀

 

 

[mossemi]

You are right again!😀

Mossey

[BlueHighways]

5 hours ago, mossemi said:

  Does that extra $4150 include the 3000W inverter?

Yes. My cost now has the 2k inverter and as I understand it, the lithium pkg has the 3k. 

 

[BlueHighways]

5 hours ago, WhatDa said:

You still get the credit with the original package, so the gap is a little larger (discount the original package). 

Yeah, after I posted that I realized I didn’t figure that in.  Exuberance subsided enough for logic to finally kick in!

[ScubaRx]

On 6/17/2020 at 10:52 AM, Mrfleck said:

They just sent me the new build sheet and it has this for Lithium:

LITHIUM PRO PACKAGE - SAVE $498 • Two LifeBlue Lithium Batteries (400 AH total) • 340 Watt Solar Panels with Charge Controller • Micro-Air Easy Start • 3000 Watt Xantrex Inverter $8999.00

In looking at LifeBlue's website, it appears that their 200AH, and 300AH batteries both have the same specs:

Discharge Current: 150A continuous, 200A for 30 Minutes, 300A for 3 seconds

What gives?

Also I'm curious about which Charge Controller is supplied in the package.  Is a MPPT or is it still a ZAMP PWM? They don't mention a shunt so it may only be a Zamp model. Since Lithium batteries needs to be charged at a constant 14.6 volts and I'm wary of the Zamp ZS-30A / ZS-40A controllers as their Absorption charging voltage is preset to 14.4 +/-0.2 VDC for LiFePO4 batteries.

If I'm reading something incorrect in all this, please enlighten me.

[AndrewK]

 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by AndrewK
Mis-typed

[Overland]

Another question to make sure of is the warranty. LifeBlue’s website says that their warranty terms don’t apply to OEM batteries, so is Oliver giving the full five year coverage or is it limited to the length of Oliver’s warranty?

I have to say that LifeBlue’s website doesn’t instill confidence, though I’m sure it renders well in Netscape. 

[mossemi]

Netscape🤔, now there’s a history lesson.  But most of us here on the Oliver Owner’s forum should remember it once we rub the cobwebs away.

Mossey

 

 

[ScubaRx]

Man, I was tickled to death to replace Pine (web browser) with Netscape. It was right up there with going from Windows 2.xx to Windows 3.1.

[WhatDa]

Lynx: alt-text is life. 
 

[Double-D]

On 6/18/2020 at 11:50 PM, ScubaRx said:

In looking at LifeBlue's website, it appears that their 200AH, and 300AH batteries both have the same specs:

Discharge Current: 150A continuous, 200A for 30 Minutes, 300A for 3 seconds

What gives?

Also I'm curious about which Charge Controller is supplied in the package.  Is a MPPT or is it still a ZAMP PWM? They don't mention a shunt so it may only be a Zamp model. Since Lithium batteries needs to be charged at a constant 14.6 volts and I'm wary of the Zamp ZS-30A / ZS-40A controllers as their Absorption charging voltage is preset to 14.4 +/-0.2 VDC for LiFePO4 batteries.

If I'm reading something incorrect in all this, please enlighten me.

According to LifeBlue, the discharge current is the same between the 200AH and 300AH models, and is correctly listed.  The difference is the storage capacity, i.e. amp-hours — 200 for the first and 300 for the second.