Xantrex Inverter Issues? Try a Hard Reboot

[Rivernerd]

On 8/4/2023 at 8:52 AM, Rivernerd said:

My wife and I are boondocking this weekend.  We plan to use high-wattage appliances,  including a hair dryer and the Truma AC, as needed.  I will update this thread after that "real world" test .

Our "real world" test was a success.  After resetting the LBCO to 11.5V, as authorized by Jason Essary, we had no inverter shutdowns when boondocking (without shore power, of course) over the weekend.  We used the Truma AC, a small 120V vacuum cleaner, a hairdryer and the microwave (one at a time, of course), at various SOC levels, with no inverter shutdowns.

I learned from Jason Essary that the origin of the problem may be traceable to a new bus bar that Oliver began installing in late 2022, and then 2023 models, with the Truma AC.  Apparently, the new bus bar reduces the DC voltage sensed by the inverter by enough to trigger a Low Battery Voltage Cutoff (LBCO) if the default setting of 12.0V is not lowered.  In our case, resetting the LBCO to 11.5V eliminated the annoying inverter shutdowns.   Jason advised that Lilthionics has approved the adjustment to an 11.5V LBCO for those with the new bus bar.

I chalk this up to "growing pains" incorporating the new Truma components into the Oliver electrical system.  To his credit, Jason Essary kept conducting tests, and working the problem, until he found the solution.

So, contrary to the suggestion in the initial post in this thread, the solution to inverter LBCO shutdowns is NOT a hard reboot, but simply resetting the LBCO to 11.5V.  I cannot explain why both the first and second hard reboot produced short-term results.  Maybe one of you electric engineers can tackle that question.  But for now, the LBCO reset appears to be working.

Hope this helps anyone else with a late 2022 or 2023 model that is experiencing LBCO inverter shutdowns.

[rich.dev]

15 minutes ago, Rivernerd said:

Jason advised that Lilthionics has approved the adjustment to an 11.5V LBCO for those with the new bus bar.

Thanks, do you know the location of this new bus bar? As far as I know, there is the positive bus bar under the driver side bed, and the negative bus bar upfront under the rear dinette seat.

[John E Davies]

It is ironic that this unit is labeled “Freedom” … freedom from what? The Lithionic batteries seem to be solid products, but the fact that each has its own on/ off switch adds a lot of unnecessary complexity to the electrical system, and the potential to wreck one of them if an owner makes a very simple mistake:

“Oliver Travel Trailers was alerted that under certain conditions the Lithionics internal BMS could be damaged if the full load for inrush amperage to the inverter is loaded on a single battery.”

https://olivertraveltrailers.com/forums/topic/6619-tsb-proper-lithionic-reboot-sequence/

I think the entire electrical system has some VERY major design flaws that should be corrected. An owner should not have to worry about cr@p like this due to shoddy design!

Ollies need a central battery master on/ off switch inside the trailer, not at the batteries...

(No - the picture is not upside down.) All the cables should be run to two central internal positive and negative buses. EACH battery positive terminal needs a limiting fuse of an adequate rating to operate normally, but it would blow in the event of a current overload. There should be no unfused wires anywhere, ever!!!!

And …… every owner should have full access to up-to-date wiring diagrams.

Does Oliver consult with professional electrical engineers? I seriously doubt it …

As a side note, “old school” electronics and appliances with separate functions, such as a charger and an inverter, or a water heater and furnace, do perfectly fine in an RV environment, they are very simple to troubleshoot or cheap to repair, and they don’t cause major system headaches when one fails. If one goes out in the field, you usually can continue camping without very much trouble.

Properly designed systems should make life easier and more trouble free for owners. Not make things complicated. OK, I am done ranting 😉

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

[Tom and Doreen]

11 hours ago, Rivernerd said:

...LBCO to 11.5V eliminated the annoying inverter shutdowns.   Jason advised that Lilthionics has approved the adjustment to an 11.5V LBCO for those with the new bus bar.

 

This should be considered a "work-around" rather than a "fix" and Oliver should come up with a permanent solution, which I'm sure they will.  In my particular case, running a 1.5kW load,  the voltage indicated by the Xantrex display was .5V lower than what was measured at that battery.  This doesn't seem like much but it does cause a premature and unnecessary shutdown of the Xantrex, as many have experienced, since the Xantrex interprets the battery voltage being much lower than it actually is.  Changing the LBCO to a lower value to compensate works however it doesn't change the fact that there is still a .5V drop across the wiring and associated circuit breaker.  That doesn't sound like a big deal but what it equates to, in my case, is that running a 1.5kW load results in 60W ( conservatively ) being dissipated by the wiring on the DC input side of the Xantrex.  That's power that's not being applied to the load and results in unnecessary heating of the wiring (although small). Ideally there would be no voltage drop between the battery and the Xantrex, in reality there will be some, nothings perfect,  but .5V is excessive.  Having said all that the "work-around" will work, as I've been using that method for a while with good results, and my heavy electrical loads are usually temporary.  

[John E Davies]

Tom, a 0.5 volt drop is indeed excessive and indicates a mechanical problem. Loose or corroded terminal, bad crimp, internal fault… you should fix it and not dismiss it. This is how fires start.

John Davies

Spokane WA

[mossemi]

1 hour ago, Tom and Doreen said:

In my particular case, running a 1.5kW load,  the voltage indicated by the Xantrex display was .5V lower than what was measured at that battery.

Are you measuring battery voltage with a multimeter at the battery terminals?  Can you also measure the battery voltage at the terminals of the inverter with a multimeter?  This method might provide a more accurate cable loss measurement than the internal display.

Mossey

[rich.dev]

2 hours ago, Tom and Doreen said:

the voltage indicated by the Xantrex display was .5V lower than what was measured at that battery. 

How did you measure the V at the battery....the BMV shunt?

***Disregard, sorry didn't see @mossemi already posted same question.

Edited August 8, 2023 by rich.dev

[Tom and Doreen]

This is what I measured back in April.  "Panel indicated" is as stated, measurements recorded from the panel. "At terminals" were values recorded with a Fluke 8062A multimeter (calibrated) with respect to the common (-) buss bar except in the case of the actual battery voltage which was measured directly across the battery terminals at the battery ( for simplicity which does not include any drop across the shunt ). I haven't measured the drop across each segment of the high current DC line but the segment from the (+) terminal of the DC input to the Xantrex to the input of the circuit breaker accounts for approximately .27V with the remaining .24V being dropped across the segments preceding the circuit breaker.  I don't know the specs for the shunt but it's probably not unreasonable to expect a .1V drop here given the load.  I did speak with an engineer at Optifuse concerning the DCR ( DC resistance under load ) of the circuit breaker since their spec sheet did not disclose this information and he stated that he would expect those values to be in the "low milliOhms if not microOhms" region which would be insignificant.  So I believe that it all comes down to the basics; is the cable quality, length, and gauge appropriately rated for the max load; is the surface area and quality of the crimps and terminals adequate, have the number of connections / crimps in the system been minimized ? Could be a 'bad circuit breaker' but given the fact that others are having the same problem, probably not. 

[Geronimo John]

3 hours ago, John E Davies said:

Ollies need a central battery master on/ off switch inside the trailer, not at the batteries...

I respect your opinion on this.  If the fire is in the Battery Box, inside is logical.  So long as every occupant of the trailer knows where it is.  

On the other hand some believe that if there is a fire situtation, get all occupants out NOW and away from the trailer.  Then once the family and pets are safe, kill the power source at the batteries or some other outside accessible location.  Looking for a master switch hidden under the beds or in a closet somewhere is not time efficient.

However fire fighters will go to the battery box and either cut the 4/0 cable or use the red master switch.  That likely will be their first action once finding the buring trailer.

Regardless, your comment begs having clearly visable signage that "Emergency Battery Switch Here" would be advisable for all locations where the switch is located.  Personally I show my guests our 350 amp rated Blue Seas master switch as part of our trailer tour.

GJ

[SeaDawg]

Well, that's another "potential " problem,  not one anyone is likely to face with quality lifepo4 batteries, but it could happen. 

Fighting a lifepo4 fire is different from a traditional fire, from what I  have read. 

Not unique to Olivers. Many manufacturers now offer a lithium upgrade.  And, many owners have done their own upgrade, hopefully to a reliable source. 

Someday, near in the future, we'll likely see a requirement for a lithium hazard symbol. Everywhere. 

For now, my home is powered by solar and  lithium, and one car. Tesla markings on the outside of our home, at the transfer switch, should help firefighters,  hopefully,  if ever needed.

[Imelda]

All, I ran into the same problem this last trip. My generator would not work at high altitude so I tried to run my microwave of the my 2000 watt inverter, I have 4X 6V batteries and I remembered early when I got the trailer I was able to run the microwave for a few minutes so I could heat up a cup of coffee. Now it shuts down almost immediately and I checked the cut off voltage and it was 0V and I could NOT reset it to 12V. It stayed at 0V! So should I try the hard reboot on the inverter?

Any ideas?   

Imelda

[mossemi]

13 hours ago, Imelda said:

All, I ran into the same problem this last trip.

Do you know which Xantrex 2000W inverter you have?  Oliver has used 2 versions of the Xantrex 2000W inverter.  The original is a PROwatt SW Inverter.  And they newer inverter is a  FREEDOM X / XC Inverter.  The original has a hard coded High and Low voltage cut off, which can not be modified by the end user to my knowledge.  The newer Inverter can be modified by the end user.  Is this the model you have?

Mossey

[Imelda]

its the is a  FREEDOM X / XC Inverter

[Ronbrink]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:52 AM, Rivernerd said:

It appears to me that setting the LBCO at 11.5V compensates for the fact that, when under heavy load, our inverter misperceives the actual battery voltage by as much as 0.9V (12.7V actual -11.8V perceived=0.9V).  It still concerns me that our Xantrex inverter misperceives DC voltage when under heavy load, but this new "workaround", i.e., setting the LBCO artificially low, enabled me to run heavy wattage loads on inverted power even at lower SOC levels, as the system was designed to do.

With the LBCO set at 11.5V, even though the Xantrex inverter perceived DC voltage of 11.8V, there, of course, were no inverter shutdowns or LBCO "[01]" warnings.  With that setting, it appears we can use high-wattage appliances on inverted power at least down to 22% State of Charge (SOC).  This is encouraging.

I lowered the LBCO from 12.1V to 11.5V and that did indeed allow extended use of the A/C via inverter without fear of a sysrem shutdown, That said, I am currently conducting  ‘hard reboot’ of my Xantrex 2000W Freedom XC in hopes of resolve of my “inverter misperceives DC voltage” issue. Thanks for your post, definitely an effective “workaround” and solution you presented, 

[Rivernerd]

On 7/3/2024 at 7:44 AM, Ronbrink said:

Thanks for your post, definitely an effective “workaround” and solution you presented, 

Jason Essary gets the credit.  He authorized the reduction of LBCO after consultation with Xantrex and Lithionics.

[John Dorrer]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:41 PM, Rivernerd said:

When returning home from the Oregon Coast this April, my wife and I boondocked at a Harvest Host site.  That cold evening, we tried to heat water for hot drinks in the microwave using the inverter, but it shut down after just a few seconds.  We were surprised and disappointed, because our Lithium Pro Package with Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 watt inverter should enable us to use the microwave on inverted power for at least a few minutes.  It had been a cloudy day so we got minimal solar recharge, and with our Nordcold fridge running on DC while on the road, our battery State of Charge was down to about 74%.  

When we submitted a service ticket, Jason Essary confirmed that we should be able to run the microwave on inverted power at 74% State of Charge (SOC), and much lower, down to 25-30% SOC. 

With Jason's helpful guidance, I then spent dozens of hours trying to troubleshoot the electrical system, both on the DC and the AC sides.  The inverter/charger was charging as designed, and would run 120V appliances that pull up to 1100-1200 watts (including the Truma air conditioner, which pulls 1100 watts with the compressor running), but loads greater than 1400 watts (like the microwave or a space heater on a high setting) caused the inverter to shut down.   Nothing we tried solved the problem, including replacement of the Optifuse 300A inverter breaker, which Oliver sent to me under warranty.  I also spoke with a Xantrex customer service rep (after45 minutes on eternahold) who assured me the problem could not be with the inverter, so it must be in the trailer wiring.

Jason then authorized me to engage an RV service tech at Oliver's expense to try to find a solution. 

But that was right before I had planned to use the trailer boondocking at the Lochsa River the week of May 15.  I decided to engage a tech after I returned home.  But while camping (and running the Lochsa river during the day) I happened to mention the inverter issue to another RVer.  He asked me if my inverter is a Xantrex.  Yup.  He then told me he had been advised by an RV service tech to do a "hard reboot" of his Xantrex inverter to resolve a similar issue.  He explained that this involves disconnecting both the positive and negative DC cables from the inverter, and leaving it at least overnight, then reconnecting.  I determined to give it a try after I returned home, as it would be relatively easy to do.

To my surprise, the "hard reboot" solved the problem.  My tests have confirmed that we can now run the microwave on full power (1540 watts) for 4 minutes or more at a time, at SOC levels down to 35%.

So, the Xantrex customer service guy was wrong--the problem was with the inverter.  And, the solution was relatively easy to implement:  turn off all batteries, and ensure that shore power is disconnected (so there is no power to the DC cables), then disconnect the DC cables from the inverter and leave at least overnight.  I left mine disconnected for 3 days.  Then reconnect, and turn the batteries back on.

If your Xantrex inverter is not performing up to spec, try a hard reboot.

Thank You. We had a bad inverter breaker 2 days after pick-up. Mike hade reset it and all was good until 2 months later. The breaker tripped again and they sent me a replacement. All has been good and I have used our microwave on the inverter

 I will file this away.

 

Did you also turn off solar and the inverter prior to disconnecting?

[Rivernerd]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:50 PM, John Dorrer said:

Did you also turn off solar and the inverter prior to disconnecting?

Yes.  I turned the red solar cutoff switch in the overhead bin next to the pantry to "Off", and ensured that the inverter remote switch (to the right of the pantry) was in the "off" position.