Simple AGM to Lithium Conversion question(s)

[Jps190]

1 hour ago, Rivernerd said:

If you must store the trailer in a cold environment without access to power, then you should remove the battery from the battery box and store it in a temperature-controlled environment (like your home).

Not necessarily.  LifePO4 Cells can withstand sub freezing temps for up to 3 months with no issues.  If it was gonna be -20F then sure I would bring them in but 20F there would be no issue leaving them in the trailer.  I put a call into Epoch to get clarification on this heater issue. I'll post what I find out.

 

John

[Rivernerd]

Lithionics, the manufacturer of the LiFePO4 batteries in our Elite II instructs to remove them from the trailer for winter storage if power is not available to keep the batteries charged in cold temps.

[MAX Burner]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:08 AM, topgun2 said:

I'd be very careful putting screws through it because it is highly likely that your tires are under there.

That's exactly what's under there!  Be careful, brother!

[Jps190]

1 hour ago, Rivernerd said:

Lithionics, the manufacturer of the LiFePO4 batteries in our Elite II instructs to remove them from the trailer for winter storage if power is not available to keep the batteries charged in cold temps.

The data below is directly from the Lithionics data Sheet.  These are industry standard temps for storing Lifepo4.  If you use your trailer/batteries at least every 3 months then they will be fine unless they will experience extreme low temperatures.  Saying that you need to remove them from your trailer is simply incorrect. The only time you would need to remove them would be storing for periods greater than 3 months at which point it would just be easier and more beneficial to just give them a full cycle.

John

 

 

Storage

Storage Temperature &

Humidity Range

< 1 Month -4~95°F (-20~35°C), 45~75%RH

< 3 Months 14~86°F (-10~30°C), 45~75%RH

Recommended

storage

59~95°F (15~35°C)，45%RH~75％RH

Long Term Storage If the battery needs to be stored for > 3 months the voltage should be 13.2V

(50%SoC) and stored at the recommended storage specifications shown

above. Additionally, the battery needs at least one charge & discharge cycle

every six months.

Self-discharge rate Residual capacity ≤3% per month; ≤15% per year

Reversible capacity ≤1.5%per month; ≤8% per year

[Jps190]

I heard back from Epoch and it appears my concerns are not warranted. 👍🏻

 

John

 

Hello John,

The self-heating has 2 requirements for activation. Temp below 32F and also connected to a charging source. It will only take current from a charging source to power the heating, never from the batteries.

[Danno and Donna]

So ... while awaiting delivery of my Epoch 300Ah lithium batteries (around 2/20/24), been thinking more about charging from the tow vehicle.  Thus far I've been thinking that I'd need to disable the TV 7-pin charging circuit ... BUT ... I've now confirmed that my TV (220 jeep Gladiator Rubicon with tow package) has a 240 Amp Alternator and that the chosen batteries have a Max Charge Current of only 200A.  Does this mean that I should be able to charge with the TV as is (no need to disable or add a DC/DC charger)? And, assuming I should still disable that charge circuit, what the risk if I DON'T disable the TV charge circuit - is there risk that I'd damage the Alternator, the batteries, or other?

[Rivernerd]

17 hours ago, Jps190 said:

If you use your trailer/batteries at least every 3 months then they will be fine unless they will experience extreme low temperatures.  

During our Idaho winters, we don't use our Lithionics batteries "at least every 3 months."  I typically park the trailer in early November and don't use it again until April, sometimes May.  That is 6+ months.

We also get "extreme low temperatures" (below 14 degrees F) during that time period.  It is not uncommon to get night time lows below 0 F.

For these reasons, I leave the trailer connected to shore power during winter storage, as recommended in Lithionics Battery Storage Procedure Rev. 7-1, to ensure that there is sufficient power to keep our external battery heaters working.  But, I disconnect shore power in early February (about now), run the batteries down to Reserve Voltage Cutoff (RVC), then re-connect shore power to charge the batteries back up.

 

Lithionics Storage Procedure Rev.7-1.pdf

[mossemi]

@Danno and Donna This YouTube link is to a Victron video about burning up an alternator while charging lithium batteries.  It is about 4 years old and caused quite a bit of controversy at the time.

Mossey

[jd1923]

2 hours ago, Danno and Donna said:

Thus far I've been thinking that I'd need to disable the TV 7-pin charging circuit ... BUT ... I've now confirmed that my TV (220 jeep Gladiator Rubicon with tow package) has a 240 Amp Alternator and that the chosen batteries have a Max Charge Current of only 200A.  Does this mean that I should be able to charge with the TV as is (no need to disable or add a DC/DC charger)? And, assuming I should still disable that charge circuit, what the risk if I DON'T disable the TV charge circuit - is there risk that I'd damage the Alternator, the batteries, or other?

Definitely disconnect the black 12V+ wire from the tow plug, regardless of battery setup.

You still need the DC-to-DC charger, given you want to charge house batteries from the TV. If you direct connect TV Start and House with say 4AWG cable, your expensive new Li batteries will receive current at the voltage determined by your TV alternator. Also, whenever your TV is connected, engine not running, current would be pulled from all batteries.

There may have issues mixing lead-acid in the TV with Lithium house batteries. I would suggest an "isolated" charger where there are separate grounds (4-wire) for TV and house: Amazon.com: Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt DC-DC Charger Isolated (Bluetooth) : Automotive

You need the charger to supply Li battery manufacturer's specified Bulk, Absorption, and Float charge rates (there may be a 4th spec for Li too). Without this you will seriously harm your Li investment!

[Danno and Donna]

mmm ... ok ... looks like I still need to disable/disconnect the 7-pin TV charging circuit ... thanks group for your input on this.  Cheers, -Dan

[SeaDawg]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:27 PM, jd1923 said:

On 2/2/2024 at 10:30 AM, Danno and Donna said:

Expand  

Definitely disconnect the black 12V+ wire from the tow plug, regardless of battery setup.

Definitely,  if lithium.

If you have lead acid, or agm (still lead acid) important to unplug from the tv when stopped for the night, to avoid draining your TV start battery. The umbilical cord basically draws from all battery connections.

Times are changing. Most people seem to gravitate to lithium, of one brand or another,  initial order, or retrofit.

We're still old school, agm. Power misers. 

.

[jd1923]

Sorry, but the "unplug overnight" is BS! Uh, what if you forget? Understood that's the OTT company spiel. Give them another few years and they will not wire this at all. The ONLY reason for the black +12VD is for cargo trailers back in the day without batteries, so you can (when connected) run a dome light. There is no modern reason for a 12 AWG charge wire, to or from the truck! Unless next time you're wiring a new hitch plug, you want a little 12V shock.

Disconnect this wire asap and never consider it again! There is no purpose, unless your "House batteries" are in fact just one group 24 "Marine battery." Is there an Oliver with less than 200AH in batteries? If so, you need to do much more than disconnect this annoying little wire!

[SeaDawg]

I have, like many other old school trailers, 2 x 105 agm 12v marine batteries. So, 210 ah, total, marine deka/East penn group 31 batteries. I probably come close to your description above. 

We can get appreciable charge, when traveling.  We also have 400 watts of fixed solar, now, so less important, these days. But still important for those who don't have solar, and have lead acid/agm batteries. Level the front, with the jack, disconnect from the truck. With the plug dangling, not too hard to remember to reconnect in the morning....

Remembering to unplug from the tv is kind of ingrained, from old school days, so not a big deal. We're used to it. Many years of practice. 

As times change, and most people get lifepo4 batteries, Oliver may discontinue the charging wire. As may other manufacturers. We'll see. Times change. Batteries change. Practices change.

Just saying, for those of us without lifepo4 batteries, the charge wire is helpful .

PS, we live quite well, many months of camping each year, with 210 ah of battery power. We have learned power management.  We camp, don't have an inverter. 

Everyone has a different camping style. Mine is different from yours, I'm sure, and I'd never criticize yours. We each decide what is most important,  and work within our defined limits.

 

[SeaDawg]

1 hour ago, Danno and Donna said:

mmm ... ok ... looks like I still need to disable/disconnect the 7-pin TV charging circuit ... thanks group for your input on this.  Cheers, -Dan

If upgrading to lithium, I would disconnect that charge wire.

You might be fine, but honestly,  you don't want to fry your alternator. There is a reason why this circuit is disconnected for trailers originally equipped with lithium.

Best of luck with your conversion,  and we'll look forward to hearing about your process, and progress!

[ChrisMI]

On 2/2/2024 at 10:30 AM, Danno and Donna said:

So ... while awaiting delivery of my Epoch 300Ah lithium batteries (around 2/20/24), been thinking more about charging from the tow vehicle.  Thus far I've been thinking that I'd need to disable the TV 7-pin charging circuit ... BUT ... I've now confirmed that my TV (220 jeep Gladiator Rubicon with tow package) has a 240 Amp Alternator and that the chosen batteries have a Max Charge Current of only 200A.  Does this mean that I should be able to charge with the TV as is (no need to disable or add a DC/DC charger)? And, assuming I should still disable that charge circuit, what the risk if I DON'T disable the TV charge circuit - is there risk that I'd damage the Alternator, the batteries, or other?

Please understand that the limit of 200amps (really 400 amps because you’re buying two batteries and wiring them in parallel) will never be an issue. That is a massive amount of current would never flow through the 7 pin wire. Any dc/dc charging off the tow vehicle will require heavy gauge wire to be added from the truck battery/alternator back to the trailer and a dc/dc charger.

[Wandering Sagebrush]

12 hours ago, SeaDawg said:

Definitely,  if lithium.

If you have lead acid, or agm (still lead acid) important to unplug from the tv when stopped for the night, to avoid draining your TV start battery. The umbilical cord basically draws from all battery connections.

<snip>

We're still old school, agm. Power misers. 

.

Doesn’t this depend on the TV make/model?  I don’t believe Big Ruby, my F350 has power to the 12VDC to the charging circuit when the engine isn’t running. 

[SeaDawg]

5 hours ago, Wandering Sagebrush said:

Doesn’t this depend on the TV make/model?  I don’t believe Big Ruby, my F350 has power to the 12VDC to the charging circuit when the engine isn’t running. 

Yes, I believe this is true in many "modern" trucks. Ours is a 2008.

[jd1923]

On 2/4/2024 at 8:03 AM, Wandering Sagebrush said:

Doesn’t this depend on the TV make/model?  I don’t believe Big Ruby, my F350 has power to the 12VDC to the charging circuit when the engine isn’t running. 

Should not depend on make or model. Both SAE and RV standard wiring diagrams show the black lead to be a “12V Hot Lead.” If it was to only have 12V when running it would be called “Ignition.” Cars and trucks generally use red wire for BAT and yellow for IGN. Use voltage tester with truck parked and everything off, you should have 1 live wire in the black position.

With solar and 4 HD lead-acid batteries, I disconnected mine. 

[topgun2]

On page one of this thread, Mountainoliver posted settings for the Blue Sky IPN remote for his set of new Battle Born batteries.

Below is a list of those same settings for two 230ah Li Time batteries that I received from Li Time.  Hope they help!  Note that the settings are very similar to those of the Battle Born's but there are small adjustments here and there and one must remember to allow for the number of batteries in order to obtain the correct setting in at least two of the settings.

Bill

 

[Danno and Donna]

Small update 2/11/24: While awaiting delivery of my (2) 600Ah Lithiums from Epoch Batteries, I started yesterday in prepping for the swap.  As posted earlier (thanks everyone for your input on this) I'll need to disable/disconnect the 12V charging circuit from the TV, so started to actually chase that down.  While I had the TV (2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon) in for annual state inspection I asked the mechanic to take a look at this and suggest options.  Not being familiar with my OTT (Hull #069) electrical details, he opted instead to simply pull the TV fuse for that circuit within the 7-pin. As simple as that seems, I can't believe I hadn't thought of that.  So... that's one solution ... however, that means I'll not have power to that pin (in the 7-Pin TV port) ... If I needed that for a different trailer in the future, I'd need to replace that fuse ... not a big deal but a bit of a PITA, and I might forget (in the future) that I'd done that which, in turn, would cause me hours of consternation sorting it out down the road. 

With that I began tracing the wiring from the OTT pigtail (that connects to the TV) back into the trailer.  Took some digging and testing, but eventually figured out where those wires (7-Pin) were running down the trough under the dinette area, and into the service compartment under the rear dinette seat.  Interestingly, I found what I thought was the black 7-Pin charge wire and that it had been already clipped and had been hanging loose the the compartment, not connected to anything!.  I confirmed that it was the correct wire by using my multimeter and doing a continuity check - sure enough, that was it!  

So, I'm concluding that either it was never connected at the factory (standard practice in 2015?) ... or was specifically requested that way by the original owner (Wincrasher) ... or, given extensive mods done by the 2nd owner (Randy - TRY2RELAX), he had chosen to disconnect for some other reason. Regardless (irregardless? 😉 ...), my problem is solved - or, it took me several hours to finally realize that the problem really didn't exist at all.  Either way, good news. I've now tagged and secured that unconnected wire for future reference.

What's crazy is that for the past 3 years (I purchased from Randy in March 2020 - one week before the COVID pandemic was declared!) every time we traveled for 4-6 hours and pulled into a camp spot it appeared the AGMS had been topped off! ... I had assumed/thought that my TV was charging my (4) AGMS ... now I know that was NOT the case ... I can only conclude that the solar panels and system under full sun was charging while traversing the highways! ... good stuff !!

The new batteries are expected to arrive in a week or so ... another update then ... Cheers, -Danno

 

[topgun2]

1 hour ago, Danno and Donna said:

I'm concluding that either it was never connected at the factory (standard practice in 2015?)

Possible - but - highly unlikely.

 

1 hour ago, Danno and Donna said:

I can only conclude that the solar panels and system under full sun was charging while traversing the highways! ... good stuff !!

Yep - those solar panels are always doing their thing unless its dark outside.😃

Bill

[SeaDawg]

I remember that my 2005 Silverado  needed a fuse, connected  inline, for the 12v charger to work from my truck, to the Ollie. We had to add the fuse, to gain charging while traveling. It's a long time ago....

After we added solar, it was actually unnecessary. 

 

[Galway Girl]

In this blog post I cover the many aspects of a Agm to lithium conversion including a discussion of the 7 pin wire disconnection and dc-dc converter installation. 

Hope  it’s of some use. 

https://4-ever-hitched.com/ggs-blog/f/lithium-battery-upgrade

Craig

[ChrisMI]

Just an FYI for those looking to buy a battery from Epoch.  They had a 15% off discount during the holidays which is done now. However, you can use the code ROLL10 for a 10% discount right now. 
 

[dewdev]

21 hours ago, Galway Girl said:

In this blog post I cover the many aspects of a Agm to lithium conversion including a discussion of the 7 pin wire disconnection and dc-dc converter installation. 

Hope  it’s of some use. 

https://4-ever-hitched.com/ggs-blog/f/lithium-battery-upgrade

Craig

Craig:

Did you have to use new batttery cables when you did your upgrade or could you use use what was existing?