Lithium Battery Upgrade

[Minnesota Oli]

• Went from 4 Trojan 6 Volt AGMs to 4 Battle Born 100Ah GC2s.
• Mounted a BMV-712 Victron in close proximity to the negative post of battery
• Mounted main fuse in close proximity to the positive post of battery
• Mounted main battery disconnect in close proximity to the positive post of battery
• Added a positive and negative bus bar and moved all cabling to inside the basement except for the 2 main 4/0 cables. (I was able to exchange main fuse with a positive bus bar using the same mounting area, then moved the fuse out to the positive post of the battery)
• I used bus bars to connect the 4 batteries in parallel 
• A strip of flat PVC was used to insulate between bus bars

Edited January 27, 2021 by Minnesota Oli

[SeaDawg]

You have indeed had a busy Minnesota winter. And it's only January !

[mossemi]

Very nice install!  Thank you for the detailed report and pictures.

Mossey

[AndrewK]

NICE!

Andrew

[Jairon]

Beautiful setup! 😀 Perfect fit!

[Mike and Carol]

Great job!  Thanks for the detailed pictures.  Mike

[topgun2]

Are you kidding me?

That's one nice clean job!  You for hire?

Bill

[mountainoliver]

Very nice install!

[Jps190]

You should seriously put a package of the those parts together, mass produce them and sell them.  I would be first in line to buy one!!!

 

John

Edited January 28, 2021 by Jps190

[BackofBeyond]

3 minutes ago, Jps190 said:

You should seriously put a package of the those parts together, mass produce them and sell them.  I would be first in line to buy one!!!

 

John

Yep - or at a minimum - design sheet, specs, etc.

A really nice job. One I will have in mind in a few years.

RB

[Overland]

That's a very nice install.  I love it.  

How are you strapping down the batteries so that they aren't going to move separately?  I was using ratchet straps on mine, but even so they seem to move around quite a bit, judging by the marks on the cases.  That would be my biggest worry with using bus bars.  I don't know the internal construction of that specific model; but on their standard ones, I think there's definitely a possibility of damaging them by stressing the terminals.  (Or you might lose your warranty if the seal around the terminals gets cracked.)  I'm sure you've considered all of that, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.  Worst case, with the terminals being on the same side on those particular batteries, would be that they start to move enough that the bus bars contact - but I guess that strip of PVC between them would make me feel more comfortable?  I don't know - I'm still a bit hesitant despite seeing your install.

Despite that hesitancy, I'm impressed.  It's so much cleaner than having big cables running everywhere.  

Maybe VHB tape between the batteries?  That might be strong enough to make them move as a unit.  

What are you using for the terminals/risers at the ends of your bus bars?  I assume that's something custom that you made?

Edited January 28, 2021 by Overland

[mjrendon]

Wow! AMAZING craftsmanship!

I had some initial concerns over the potential for terminal stresses but less so after noticing how the batteries are butted together, which should provide for significant stability that would be difficult to achieve using four of their standard batteries.  I am very interested in, if and how you are going to strap the four batteries together.

[Minnesota Oli]

20 hours ago, Overland said:

That's a very nice install.  I love it.  

How are you strapping down the batteries so that they aren't going to move separately?  I was using ratchet straps on mine, but even so they seem to move around quite a bit, judging by the marks on the cases.  That would be my biggest worry with using bus bars.  I don't know the internal construction of that specific model; but on their standard ones, I think there's definitely a possibility of damaging them by stressing the terminals.  (Or you might lose your warranty if the seal around the terminals gets cracked.)  I'm sure you've considered all of that, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.  Worst case, with the terminals being on the same side on those particular batteries, would be that they start to move enough that the bus bars contact - but I guess that strip of PVC between them would make me feel more comfortable?  I don't know - I'm still a bit hesitant despite seeing your install.

Despite that hesitancy, I'm impressed.  It's so much cleaner than having big cables running everywhere.  

Maybe VHB tape between the batteries?  That might be strong enough to make them move as a unit.  

What are you using for the terminals/risers at the ends of your bus bars?  I assume that's something custom that you made?

 

If you notice the under side of the star board I have cut relief so when it is slid down over the pos and neg posts it also locks the four batteries in place. It truly feels like one large battery,they do not even wiggle. Then the tray does the rest. I will be watching for damage by the strap hooks but it truly acts as one big battery so I hoping it is not going to be a problem.

The neg and pos terminal posts are made from 7/8 round copper with a pvc sleave pressed over the OD. 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Overland
Removed a formatting error that was causing post to display incorrectly on iPhones

[John E Davies]

Beautiful, I really like it. Thanks for posting.

As an ex A&P I can appreciate the fine craftsmanship. But you gotta take off the steel watch and band. Please. It doesn’t belong around potentially very high DC current. When I became an aircraft tech I gave up a necklace and a wedding ring.... Too many stories of guys with burns or missing fingers.... and screwed up equipment. And don’t leave conducting tools just lying close by. On top of the open battery door would be better....

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by John E Davies

[Minnesota Oli]

Thanks John

 I really appreciate the complement especially from you.

 I also appreciate the reminder of the use of safe practices around potentially dangerous areas. Especially when putting up pictures that the rest of the Oliver commuity will see, a person needs to show good example. 

Thanks again Paul

[Minnesota Oli]

https://www.bluesea.com/products/2718/MaxiBus_Insulating_Cover_for_PN_2105_and_2126https://www.bluesea.com/products/2126/MaxiBus_250A_BusBar_-_Six_5_16in-18_Studshttps://www.amazon.com/Battery-Spartan-Power-Negative-Terminals/dp/B07MXQSNHR/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&hvadid=77859219137661&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvqmt=b&keywords=spartan%2Bcable&qid=1612200841&sr=8-5&tag=mh0b-20&th=1

 

On 1/28/2021 at 12:34 PM, BackofBeyond said:

Yep - or at a minimum - design sheet, specs, etc.

A really nice job. One I will have in mind in a few years.

RB

Well I want to try to answer to this request. Its a project that requires you to cover a lot of ground so I decided to break it down to individual aspect of the project.

 So I am standing at the side of the Oliver looking at the open battery compartment. I see this maze of cables and I am thinking of a discussion on the Oliver Forum. It was suggesting that there could be a improvement to this maze of cables by installing bus bars, one positive and one negative inside the basement of the Oliver. This would allow the cables from the various components such as Zamp Solar Controller, Side wall solar Port, Progressive Dynamics Power Center, and the chassis ground to be routed to the relevant bus bar. With that done it would only leave the positive and the negative 4/0 cables leading to to the battery compartment from each perspective bus bar. With that said the only other cables that my set up has is the one that leads from the Victron BMV-712 battery monitor to the remote display. I also have a now unused wire that was for the temperature probe that was hook up to the Zamp solar controller. The service person at Battle Born advised to disconnect this at the Zamp solar controller, I did leave the unhooked wire in place for possible future use.

 I then went inside to determine the placement of the bus bars considering the number and lengths of cables that need to be relocated and how I was  going to attach them in the Oliver basement. I was looking at the positive 4/0 cable coming in to the basement from the battery compartment then going to the main fuse block and then continuing on to the inverter. That is when I thought about swapping out the fuse block with the positive bus bar sense the 4/0 cable is already run and no need to make up positive 4/0 cables. It also had a mounting block already in place. This meant I could move the main fuse out to the battery compartment next to the positive battery post to better protect the wiring. This was another topic I remember following on the Oliver Forum, so much information to be had.

 I looked at how the various cables were run into both sides of the battery compartment and they had positive on one side and negative on the other. So it made sense with the wire lengths the way they were to try to find a spot to mount the negative bus bar in the compartment under the street side bed.
I started looking for a place or a way to do it with out having to glue a block to the fiberglass. I noticed two 1/2" bolts that were used to mount the street side stabilizer to the frame. I used a 1/4" aluminum flat that was 6" X 14" long. I then drilled holes to match the stabilizer mount. I then had to put a slight bend about 5" from the end so the plate would run parallel to the wheel well. That is where I mounted the negative bus bar. When I pulled the cables back out of the battery compartment I was able to do it with out removing the terminal ends. Some I had to bend slightly to get them through the cable glands, but this saved me from having to mess around with installing new ones. All the wires turned out to be the right length except the positive wire from the remote solar port. I was able to shorten that wire where there was a inline fuse and add a ring terminal. The negative 4/0 cable that went from the battery to the inverter was then rerouted to the negative bus bar. The only cable I had to buy was a three foot 4/0 to go from the negative bus bar to the inverter.

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Minnesota Oli
Try to fix the links to bus bar and 4/0 cable

[JRK]

I assume that the Zamp controller works with the lithium iron batteries? Or did you change out the controller, too, to the Zamp? 

I have multiple controllers for multiple battery types for multiple uses, from various periods of my life, is why I am asking. 

John

[Minnesota Oli]

Hi John

 I have all the stock charge controllers, the Zamp ZS-30A solar charger does have as selectable battery type on the display panel with LiFePO4 as a option. Battle Born did advised me to disconnect the temperature probe from the Zamp solar controller. The Progressive Dynamics Power Center charger has a selectable jumper on the board that needs to be put LiFePO4.

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BackofBeyond]

I have thought about this feat of engineering and execution for a few days now, and I must assume you have access to a machine shop or the equipment to make those wonderful PVC blocks, and press fit terminals.  I too wondered about the stress on the terminals - but then the original wire is not all that compliant either, so perhaps only time will tell. 

My hat is off to you sir. I vote your effort as mod of the year - solar division. 🤑

Now - if we can get Battel born, or a competitor - to just manufacture  a single 400 amp hour LIfepo battery - with just one set of neg/pos terminals , that fits neatly into the standard Oliver tray - our lives will become much improved.

RB

I must not have the correct app to open the attachments - any help?

Edited February 2, 2021 by BackofBeyond
help

[John E Davies]

40 minutes ago, Minnesota Oli said:

Battle Born did advised me to disconnect the temperature probe from the Zamp solar controller. 

Did they give a reason for this? I don’t have the Zamp probe any more, I removed the Zamp unit and installed a Victron MPPT controller, which absolutely requires either a Victron temp probe or alternatively one connected (and networked to) the BVM battery monitor (ground shunt).

I am curious about why a temp probe might be a problem.

John Davies

Spokane WA

 

[John E Davies]

21 minutes ago, BackofBeyond said:

Now - if we can get Battel born, or a competitor - to just manufacture  a single 400 amp hour LIfepo battery - with just one set of neg/pos terminals , that fits neatly into the standard Oliver tray - our lives will become much improved.

That is very excellent from an installer’s point of view, but if it fails you are dead in the water for possibly a very long time. An installation where a failed battery can easily and quickly be removed for service, while maintaining full functionality at a reduced capacity, makes more sense to me. Several small ones connected by easily accessible cables, in other words. For an RV that gets jounced and jolted, this seems to be a prudent design. A fixed bus bar installation would be perfect for a home, but how long will it remain working in the rough world of a camper? Even if this one proves to be bullet proof, I personally would never stop worrying about it.

Battle Born batteries have no way to read onboard cell voltages and their condition, so the only way you can test one to see if it is OK is to separate it from the others, fully charge it, then do a load test with a Battery Monitor to see if it is giving you the right amount of amp hours. Repeat for the next one.. And the next one.... until you find the bad one. If BB wil update their onboard BMS to allow individual cell monitoring, a solid bus installation will be more practical, but still fairly vulnerable to shaking damage. Which IMHO would NOT be covered by their excellent 10 year warranty. “This warranty does not cover negligence or misuse of the battery. If it is deemed that the battery was used improperly, you will be subject to a $150 an hour repair charge plus parts and shipping.”

John Davies

Spokane WA

Edited February 2, 2021 by John E Davies

[Minnesota Oli]

Hey John

 You know I neglected to question him about that, I had so many thoughts and question at the time of the call I failed to follow up on it. I had given brand and model info so he could check for capability and that is when he told my to unhook temp probe at the back of the Zamp control. He was also aware of the setting on the Progressive Dynamics charger board that needed to be changed.

 

Paul

[BackofBeyond]

Yep  - JD I did not consider that point. However, when I install 2 of the 400ah behemoth's - problem solved. But that is in my homebuilt earth roamer - currently under construction in the recess of my mind.

By the time I get to needing BB batteries - perhaps they will have fixed your issue with cell monitoring.

RB

[Minnesota Oli]

1 hour ago, John E Davies said:

That is very excellent from an installer’s point of view, but if it fails you are dead in the water for possibly a very long time. An installation where a failed battery can easily and quickly be removed for service, while maintaining full functionality at a reduced capacity, makes more sense to me. Several small ones connected by easily accessible cables, in other words. For an RV that gets jounced and jolted, this seems to be a prudent design. A fixed bus bar installation would be perfect for a home, but how long will it remain working in the rough world of a camper? Even if this one proves to be bullet proof, I personally would never stop worrying about it.

Battle Born batteries have no way to read onboard cell voltages and their condition, so the only way you can test one to see if it is OK is to separate it from the others, fully charge it, then do a load test with a Battery Monitor to see if it is giving you the right amount of amp hours. Repeat for the next one.. And the next one.... until you find the bad one. If BB wil update their onboard BMS to allow individual cell monitoring, a solid bus installation will be more practical, but still fairly vulnerable to shaking damage. Which IMHO would NOT be covered by their excellent 10 year warranty. “This warranty does not cover negligence or misuse of the battery. If it is deemed that the battery was used improperly, you will be subject to a $150 an hour repair charge plus parts and shipping.”

John Davies

Spokane WA

 I have thought about this issue of isolating a battery from the rest in the group of four and what I would be up against. To get at the buss bar I would have to pull the star board that is mounted on top of batteries by removing two screws on each end that lock it down. Then remove the positive and negative terminal bolts and lift the star board from the batteries. Then remove the bolt of the positive terminal of the battery I want to isolate and slip a insulating material between the battery terminal and the buss bar. That should work but has not been tested yet. 

 The Battle Born 100Ah GC2s have their terminals laid out in such away that when side by side or facing each other the negative terminal are all aligned with each other but at a different level then the positive terminals. So I believe the were designed for a buss bar application and they do cost slightly more the the standard configuration. So I need to make a call to Battle Born and confirm this. 

[Minnesota Oli]

2 hours ago, Minnesota Oli said:

 I have thought about this issue of isolating a battery from the rest in the group of four and what I would be up against. To get at the buss bar I would have to pull the star board that is mounted on top of batteries by removing two screws on each end that lock it down. Then remove the positive and negative terminal bolts and lift the star board from the batteries. Then remove the bolt of the positive terminal of the battery I want to isolate and slip a insulating material between the battery terminal and the buss bar. That should work but has not been tested yet. 

 The Battle Born 100Ah GC2s have their terminals laid out in such away that when side by side or facing each other the negative terminal are all aligned with each other but at a different level then the positive terminals. So I believe the were designed for a buss bar application and they do cost slightly more the the standard configuration. So I need to make a call to Battle Born and confirm this. 

 I was able to talk to Battle Born and was told that buss bars is there prefer or recommended method for installing multiple batteries even in a mobile application. So that was good to hear.