Starting a Lithium Upgrade

[Galway Girl]

I'm starting a Lithium upgrade on a 2019 Elite II Hull 505 - I've reviewed many other posts and projects (thanks for your postings) and decided to start this one to document my project to install new Lithionics batteries.  Comments from those of you with experience very welcome:

Overview:  Lithium Upgrade Project:  

Reason I'm upgrading:

My 4 AGM's finally died this spring.
I've got some time now to do this project now before a 9 month road trip later this year.

 

There are three ways that batteries get charged in hull 505:  
1) From Alternator/7PIN
2) From AC Shore Power
3) From Solar:

1) Alternator or DC/DC CHARGING: 
    Our Oliver's batteries get charged through the 7 pin connector while driving.  
    This is considered Alternator Charging or DC/DC charging.
    For Lead Acid Chemistry this charging method works fine as the amount of current drawn by AGM's or WET Lead Acid's is relatively low because they have higher internal resistance.
    Many of you know that you can't rely on that 7 pin connection to fully re-charge your batteries but they can keep them from declining.
    Hull 505 was built with a 20A breaker in this 7 Pin line to protect the wiring and Tow Vehicle alternator.
    For Lithium batteries with very low internal impedance this current draw can be many time higher, and result in overloading the tow vehicle alternator or cause wiring overloads. 
    To make charging more consistent and protect the alternator a DC/DC charger is the preferred choice for LI batteries.
    My Plan:  I will be adding a Victron DC/DC 30A Charger on board the Oliver.

 Installation Research and feedback from Oliver Service says that I need to:

• Carefully inspect the existing 7 pin wiring and do load calculations.  
• Worst case I'll be running a new pair of dedicated 6 AWB charging wires from engine bay of Truck all the way back to the DC/DC charger.
• Figure out my location to mount for the Victron DC/DC charger. Must be near the batteries and have some cooling space and dissipation plate under the charger.
• Run new 6AWG wires from my Truck Engine Bay all the way back to an Anderson Connector on the Rear Bumper of my truck.
• On the Oliver, run 6AWG wires back into the same bay as the DC/DC charger.

 

2) AC Shore Power Charging - Upgrade to Xantrex XC 2000 Pro Inverter/Charger - provides 100A Battery Charging

    In my specific hull 505 I have a Progressive Dynamics 4000 load center.  This houses the AC Breakers, DC Fuses and a converter section for battery charging.
    In my PD4000 there is a PD 4065 Converter section (65A) with Lithium Jumper for Battery Charging. 
    In normal operation that charger is set to WIZ (or Lead Acid) position and it follows a profile that's perfect for lead acid batteries and AGM's.
    If I move the switch (or jumper) to the LI position, it now has a constant output at 14.6V which is OK for Lithium but not optimum for the Lithionics batteries.
    Lithionics prefers that I use another charger with a programmable LI profile.
    My Plan: I'm upgrading my current PD converter charger and separate Prosine 2000W inverter to an integrate  Xantrex XC2000 Pro  Charger/Inverter.
                   Note: I don't plan on running my AC off the batteries so the 2000W inverter is plenty for my needs. In the Platinum Package Oliver installs the XC3000.
 

 Installation Research and feedback from Oliver Service says that I need to

• Disconnect the existing PD4065  converter charging leads that go to the batteries and tape them up.  
• Leave the charger block in the PD4000 load center cage  - just in case I need to downgrade later back to AGM's.
• Remove the existing 2000W Inverter and Auto Transfer switch.
  (The load and AC wires go back into the new XC2000 along with the 4/0 B+ and GND leads)
  • Mounting issue: I'll need to figure out how to attach the new inverter to the same spot under the street side bed. 

3) Solar Charging  - No Change at this time

   In my Hull 505, I have a Zamp 30A PWM Solar Controller.  
   This controller isn't as efficient as an MPPT controller, but it is already installed and works.  
   In keeping this first install simple, I'm leaving that in place.
   My Plan:  I'll be leaving Zamp 30A Charger in place for now, and will upgrade to a higher power MPPT controller in the future along with more solar panels.

 Installation Research and feedback from Lithionics says that I need to:

• Install a breaker on the solar + line so I can Isolate from batteries.

 

4) Decluttering the battery box -
    It looks like many of you have moved all the loads and negatives to common bus bars as a way to declutter the battery box area.
    I want to do the same...I've read the posts so far but wonder what's been the most difficult part of those change overs?
    I plan to wire in a cutoff switche for the main B+ power (Big Red Knob) and a breaker for the Solar Inputs so I can cut all power for winter LI battery storage.

 

Comments welcome before I get to the start line.

 

Craig

Hull 505

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Galway Girl
Updated Diagram

[SeaDawg]

Galway Girl, I  split your post to a new topic, so that you get your own comments.

Good luck with the upgrade. We'll look forward to your progress !

Edited March 29, 2021 by SeaDawg
Typo

[NCeagle]

We bought our 2020 Elite II with LifeBlue Lithiums, so I can't comment on an upgrade, but I can comment on things I've learned that you may want to consider in your "design". 

1.  Temperature control:  the Lithiums like to be at room temperature (+/- 20F).  OTT installs a heating mat custom made for super-cold conditions.  I know a lot of owners with Lithium, including myself, have sealed off the battery box vents and insulated the door.  Conditioned air is also something to consider.  @John E Davieshas vented and installed a computer fan to help with temperatures in his battery box.  I took a different approach and decided to keep the battery box air tight and tie it in directly with the cabin conditioned air using a dedicated 4" smart fan and ducts.  

2.  A charger that has either software control or an easy to access cutoff between the charger and the batteries.  Lithiums don't like to be topped off and kept at 100%, so I have found that I do a lot of shorter charge cycles like from 50% to 85% or so.  Turning the charger off / on may be something you find you would like to do more often than you have in the past, so easy access is very nice to have.  

Good luck - I'm sure you will get lots of great advice and help from other members that have just done the actual upgrade!

John

[Galway Girl]

9 hours ago, NCeagle said:

Lithiums don't like to be topped off and kept at 100%

John -- So  having the ability to turn on or off the charger is useful...and that I should let the lithiums drain down further before recharging.
Does that mean while connected to shore power I should turn off the Xantrex 2000XC Pro charger until the batteries are down to 50% ?

FYI: 

The batteries I'm using come from Lithionics and are internally heated with embedded wireless BT monitors.
They also have integrated ON/OFF switch for cutoff of power for safety and storage.
They are now being offered by Oliver as part of their new Lithium Platinum Package.
Attached is the full data sheet on the Lithionics GTX 315A battery.

Two of these batteries will perfectly fit into the existing Battery Tray.
Based on the dimensions, and Oliver testing they have ~1/2" space each side for spacer blocks to keep batteries tightly secured along with the strap system.
Once I get the batteries in hand I'll be doing a set of schematic drawings. 
I'll be taking pictures of tear out, and reinstall and any other mods I need to make along the way.

I'll also be adding a Xantrex XC 2000 Pro - Inverter Charger with BT Monitor/control panel.

 

 

 

**********   Picture and text below from the Oliver Website including the picture of batteries in the existing tray *****************

https://olivertraveltrailers.com/travel-trailers/legacy-elite-2/upgrades-add-ons/

The 2022 Oliver Lithium Platinum Package includes... 
- 630 AH Lithium Batteries Package (2 Lithionics GTX315A)
- 340 Watt Solar Package with Charge Controller (Zamp PWM Controller)
- 3000 Watt Inverter - Xantrex XC 3000 Pro
- Micro-Air soft start capacitor for the A/C

 

 

 

GTX12V315A-E2107-CS200-R7.pdf

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Galway Girl
removed duplicate image

[Overland]

May I recommend the Victron MultiPlus over the Xantrex?  It's less than $300 more and will give you a true hybrid inverter/charger, 3000 watts, and would cover the biggest expense in creating a full Victron network, with all the bells and whistles that entails.  

[Overland]

20 hours ago, Galway Girl said:

I've read the posts so far but wonder what's been the most difficult part of those change overs?

Just getting everything in your head so you're not drowning in a sea of wiring connections.  

Q: Are you buying the batteries directly from Lithionics or through Oliver?  I didn't think that Lithionics would sell to the public.  May I ask how much?

Edited March 30, 2021 by Overland

[Galway Girl]

I'm working with Oliver and Lithionics.  
Lithionics doesn't sell direct to consumers.
Xantrex is used because that's what Oliver Factory is using and supported by Lithionics.
 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Galway Girl

[NCeagle]

2 hours ago, Galway Girl said:

John -- So  having the ability to turn on or off the charger is useful...and that I should let the lithiums drain down further before recharging.
Does that mean while connected to shore power I should turn off the Xantrex 2000XC Pro charger until the batteries are down to 50% ?

Yes, when connected to shore power, that's exactly what I do - I turn off the charger at 80% or so and back on at 50% - which is several days since there's primarily lights and fans draining the batteries slowly.  I figured out how to use the Xantrex 3000 software to turn the charger off and on.  I know the BMS protects the batteries from overcharge, but being full all the time does stress the cells as well.  If I know I'll be dry camping, I will top the batteries off, but I'll not keep the charger on (including solar) when they get back to 100%.  I'm not sure if any of this will increase the longevity of the batteries significantly, but I don't mind doing it so far.  Time will tell.

 

[rangered]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:14 PM, NCeagle said:

Yes, when connected to shore power, that's exactly what I do - I turn off the charger at 80% or so and back on at 50% - which is several days since there's primarily lights and fans draining the batteries slowly.  I figured out how to use the Xantrex 3000 software to turn the charger off and on.  I know the BMS protects the batteries from overcharge, but being full all the time does stress the cells as well.  If I know I'll be dry camping, I will top the batteries off, but I'll not keep the charger on (including solar) when they get back to 100%.  I'm not sure if any of this will increase the longevity of the batteries significantly, but I don't mind doing it so far.  Time will tell.

 

NCeagle

I like the idea of turning off the charger while still being on shore power. Could you share how you used the Xantrex software to turn the charger off and on. I have the 3000 watt inverter/charger with the Lithionics batteries. I downloaded the Xantrex app today, but did not see anything obvious in the settings to turn the charger off. Thank you

[Galway Girl]

Alan,

NCEagle (John)  found a slick use of a SW feature and sent this to me earlier in a PM when I asked that same question:

 

"... I use the software switch called "Charger Ignition Control".  If "auto-on" the charger won't work without a car ignition - which the Ollie doesn't have so the charger is off when that switch is on.  Conversely, when the ignition control switch is set to "off" the charger will charge the battery whenever it has the power to do so."

 

 

Craig

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Galway Girl

[rangered]

Craig,

I had noticed this setting in the app, John's repurpose does offer a great feature. I will give it a try in the morning.

Thank you,

[Galway Girl]

 An update for the forum on my project to upgrade to 2 new Lithionics GTX315 Batteries for Hull 505 - Galway Girl.
Some slide ware below is self explanatory...but if you have questions, please ask.

We'll be doing a month long road test in June.

 
Craig Short
Hull 505

 

 

 

________________________________
What are we adding?

 

________________________________

Project plan:

_________________________________________________

New System Level Block Diagram:

___________________________________________________

What we are removing from Hull 505:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
How to disable the existing onboard Progressive 4060 converter / charger:

_______________________________________

New Components Installed: 

_________________________________________________________________________________

The finished installation:

______________________________________________________________________

Battery Bay with (2) Lithionics GTX 315's Installed:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Victron DC/DC Charger Modification - new wiring run and hull penetration: 

In this case we used a Blue Sea CableClam for the hull penetration to maintain a sealed exterior.

 

 

1242127529_Hull505Upgrade.pdf

[BackofBeyond]

Craig:

Impressive - Documentation is very well done.

What do you estimate the conversion will cost in total. 

Any reason why your AGM's were so short lived?

RB

[Galway Girl]

The AGM’s were Trojan brand, but the ones in a black plastic case made in China. They are cheaper OEM versions with a one year warranty.

The Trojan support line told me they are inferior to the US made Trojans in the maroon cases. There wasn’t a specific event that caused them to fail, other than one having a short and taking out the other 3. 

For the upgrade I estimate the total cost including all the parts, cabling and main gear a bit over $10,000.00
 

 

 

 

[Ralph Mawyer]

I queried Craig on the Oliver Facebook page and thought I'd recap his answers here for continuity..

 

Ralph>> I know you worked closely with Oliver, but wasn’t sure what they provided. Did you source all your major parts via Oliver or just the Lithionics?

"Craig Short

Author

It was a team effort as I originally planned to have it done at the factory in the fall, but my Agm’s died in February. 

All the wiring, cables, buss bars etc. were locally sourced from Marine Suppliers. 

 

Lithionics was able to supply the GTX315 batteries, Xantrex XC2000 inverter/charger & Bluetooth controller, and the Victron Orion 12/12-30a chargers. (They resell those brands.)

 

Oliver provided guidance on how to disable the 7pin, how to disable the Progressive on board converter and how to hook up the new inverter to existing circuits. They also suggested where & how to safely drill holes for new 6awg DC/Dc charger wires and how to use the Through Hull CableClam for waterproof Hull penetration. 

 

Ford Body Builder Service told me where to hook up my 6 AWG wires and how to put in a new chassis ground lug.  https://fordbbas.com/home"

[Ralph Mawyer]

Craig, did Oliver Service give you a retro-fit labor estimate to do all of this, if you had it done there?

[Galway Girl]

No, we hadn't received an upgrade quote from Oliver before I had to move forward with a self install.

It's likely any Lithium battery upgrade prices from Oliver will depend upon your specific Hull's existing components and exactly what has to be changed for your upgrade.  

For example, if your hull is already wired up with either an XC2000 or XC3000 Inverter/Charger the cost should be much different  than I paid since I had to also add a new Inverter/Charger.  Oliver now carries two different Lithionics Batteries. They are compared against Battleborn in the chart below from Lithionics.

Best bet is to get with Jason and the Service Team to discuss an upgrade quote.

Hope that helps.

I decided to go with Lithionics because of:
1) Quality of their design
2) UL Testing and Certifications
3) Designed in features like heaters in the GTX, built in bluetooth shunt monitors, designed in cutoff switches...that reduces overall costs and install complexity.

Craig

 

Craig

 

[Jps190]

13 hours ago, Galway Girl said:

The AGM’s were Trojan brand, but the ones in a black plastic case made in China. They are cheaper OEM versions with a one year warranty.

The Trojan support line told me they are inferior to the US made Trojans in the maroon cases. There wasn’t a specific event that caused them to fail, other than one having a short and taking out the other 3. 

For the upgrade I estimate the total cost including all the parts, cabling and main gear a bit over $8500.00
 

 

 

 

That sounds like a really good price considering Oliver charges $11000 for just those batteries and the 3000 watt inverter.  What was the individual cost for the batteries?  I have a delivery date in Nov and was considering the lithium pro package.  I was originally just going to do it myself since I was not thrilled with the Lifeblue batteries.  I now understand that Oliver is exclusively installing Lithonics with I assume I will get at the 2021 model price of $8999 which is a pretty good deal when those batteries are included.  I would like the larger batteries that you have installed but the factory price is  quite a bit high for what you get compared to the lithium pro package.  Do I understand correctly that you purchased the batteries and other equipment from Oliver since lithonics doesn't sell to consumers?  

As a side topic has anyone replaced the generic lock on the battery tray with something a little more secure?  Having thousands of dollars worth of batteries with a generic lock leaves me a little apprehensive.

 

John

[Galway Girl]

Just saw this tear down comparison between Lithionics GTX315 and Battleborne.

 

 

My update to Lithionics  is complete and we’re going out for a month of ttravel to test.

 

 

[Galway Girl]

Next UP - Setting Up the Truck to Power additional Electrical Items:

After upgrading to the Lithiums for the Trailer, I decided to move 2 AGM's into the back of our Truck as campsite power.
They will provide added power (210AH)  to be used by our ARB Fridge, Compressor and any other 12V Electrical devices.
To keep the batteries charged while driving I installed a Redarc 25A BC/DC Charger. 
In future I may put solar on the Roof of the truck to power the Redarc MPPT controller also to charge those 2 AGM's.
(I also have the ProWatt 2000W Inverter I removed from the trailer that might be mounted later for Campsite AC Power.)

Here's a overview of the installation.

UPDATE - Mar 2022 - To show a Change.

After 6 month on the road and constant worry about those exposed components, I rewired and place them safely on the back side of the mounting board.  I added standoff spacers to give room for airflow, and left the Charger on the Outside where I can see the indicator LED's.   The whole assembly can be removed with a few screws for access.

 

 

CShort

 

[Geronimo John]

JPS 190  "As a side topic has anyone replaced the generic lock on the battery tray with something a little more secure?  Having thousands of dollars worth of batteries with a generic lock leaves me a little apprehensive."

John: 

I was thinking the exact same  thought.  However, the latch itself would be an easy to defeat pry target. 

Somewhat tongue in cheek, a "Let's Over-Think This" off the wall idea, but maybe feasible if the Pantry is tall enough:

OPTION 1:  How about reinforcing the back of the latch side of the hatch, and adding horizontal tangs high and low (But for JD one in the middle too! 🙂.)  pointing into the battery box.  Drill a hole in each tang for a pin to drop through.  Add holes in the ceiling and floor of the battery compartment.  In the pantry, have a vertical pin with a cord attached to the top of the pin, and a long taper on the bottom of the pin.  Pin would be well smaller diameter than the holes in the tangs.  Put a pulley on the top of the pantry over the stack up of holes.  Run the cord to the front of the pantry so that operation of the drop dead pin (Aka dead bolt) to be operated from inside.  

OPTION 2:  Less complex would be to just install two of those cord operated automatic flush bolts.  Reinforce the battery compartment with the provided latch plates.  Add a pulley on the top of the bottom latch, run the top latch cord down to the pulley, then up and connect with the lower latch cord.  Then extend a single cord up into the pantry.  Once in the pantry, use another pulley to allow the cord to then run to the front of the pantry for easy access for opening the latches.  For the professional "over thinkers", add a spring to the battery compartment so that the door will pop open when pulling the cord from the pantry.  LOL.   

OPTION 3:  Add an exploding dye charge to "highlight" the thief.  Won't stop the batteries from being stolen, but it will at least bring a smile to your and the Police Officer faces when you describe what the thief looks like.  

 

 

Geronimo John

[Geronimo John]

Thank you.

 

 

[Rivernerd]

On 5/20/2021 at 8:25 AM, Galway Girl said:

For example, if your hull is already wired up with either an XC2000 or XC3000 Inverter/Charger the cost should be much different  than I paid since I had to also add a new Inverter/Charger.  

Bumping this old thread with a question:  If another 2019 Elite II with 6V AGMs (wired in series) already has a Xantrex XC2000 installed, but an XC3000 is desired as part of a lithium upgrade (to enable running AC from the batteries/inverter), could you just swap the XC2000 for an XC3000, swap out the AGMs for Lithionics GTX 315 Ah batteries, and be done (except for disabling the 7-pin charging wire)?

[ChrisMI]

44 minutes ago, Rivernerd said:

Bumping this old thread with a question:  If another 2019 Elite II with 6V AGMs (wired in series) already has a Xantrex XC2000 installed, but an XC3000 is desired as part of a lithium upgrade (to enable running AC from the batteries/inverter), could you just swap the XC2000 for an XC3000, swap out the AGMs for Lithionics GTX 315 Ah batteries, and be done (except for disabling the 7-pin charging wire)?

I’d strongly consider upgrading the AC unit like @Spike just did. You might be fine with the 2k inverter…

[Galway Girl]

52 minutes ago, Rivernerd said:

Bumping this old thread with a question:  If another 2019 Elite II with 6V AGMs (wired in series) already has a Xantrex XC2000 installed, but an XC3000 is desired as part of a lithium upgrade (to enable running AC from the batteries/inverter), could you just swap the XC2000 for an XC3000, swap out the AGMs for Lithionics GTX 315 Ah batteries, and be done (except for disabling the 7-pin charging wire)?

In the 2019 the wiring for the 2000 W inverter only is connected to the outlets and the uW outlet. 
It is not connected to the AC which is on it's own circuit.

If you want to have a 3K inverter to run the uW then you would have a rewiring project ahead of you...and you may want to ask the Oliver Service about how you could accomplish the 3K inverter wiring.

Craig