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To the original poster, it is normal for 50-70 RV's to check in or out of my CG on any given day. In the situation you describe the only guilty party is the guy that was mean mugging you while you were backing in... Period. We have all been in that situation and he obviously forgot that fact. As for the onlookers that really enjoy watching others struggle? well I have little respect for this, its rude, simple as that. When it comes to helping folks out? I tend to chill out for a few moments while I determine if they are struggling or simply need a bit of time to get the lay of that particular site. If I am sure they are struggling I ask if I can assist in any way and typically just walk next to the drivers window quietly offering "turn driver/turn passenger" directions to the driver until their rig is safely in their site, if this fails I do offer to drive and have backed in more rigs than I can count. 100% of the time this has been appreciated and never any liability issues or damage to anything at all. None of us are perfect we all need a hand now and then, when the chance to be the one who helps arises? Put your beer down for a few minutes and do your part. IMHO. Dan

To put the sealant conversation to rest, we had a significant rain all day yesterday and the sealant held well! No leaks.. So far! Here is the silver lining in all this ~ The land yacht got a name!

So OTT is just another manufacturer producing evolving products with an electrical system that a "skilled trade" can't understand? The only challenge with the earlier model diagrams is seeing through the errors. How about just admitting not wanting to commit the resources required to maintain accurate wiring diagrams. That's even more believable.

Keep in mind that quite a few owners on the forum are in fact insane, and will do things to their trailers that normal people would not. But, you can tap into that insanity when needed and can usually find one of the crazies who can (occasionally successfully) walk you through a diagnosis or repair that would otherwise be overwhelming.

Here's a link to a Practical Sailors article/review on different sealants that SeaDawg may have been talking about. Our discussion above got me thinking a bit more about sealants in particular applications and I came upon this fine review: https://www.practical-sailor.com/boat-maintenance/marine-sealant-adhesion-tests Education is ever evolving! Dave

You're very kind. More importantly, I think you're going into the process thoughtfully, and carefully. In the first few decades of our marriage, my husband was away from home for work, six or seven months a year. I worked, was basically a single mom, and kept my house running. I had help from my family, when I really needed it, but preferred to do what I could on my own. You'll get some help from your Oliver family, too. Doing what you can on your own, at the very least a clear understanding of the problem or process, is priceless. I think you've got spunk. You'll likely be fine and happy. It's a beautiful camping world, out there. Will you maintain a home base? Your present home, or a relative with storage space?

We camped at Banner Elk - what a nice little town in a really scenic part of NC. I can’t recommend a campground, but have a funny story about where we camped…. The short version - we met the couple next to us while camping at Unicoi State Park in north GA. He (Kevin) asked where we were going next, I told him (it was a COE campground down the hill from Banner Elk). He said don’t go there, keep going up to Banner Elk. I asked if he would recommend a campground, he said no, camp in the parking lot of my business, JACKS Glass Shop for as long as you want, W/E included and there is a shower and small kitchen in the shop. So we did. It was a great camping spot. We sent him a bunch of TX BBQ supplies when we got home for him to use on his future camping trips!

The cradlepoint system was developed for companies that had a need for wide area communications. Police, Ambulance, etc. It is now developed for Boating and RV purposes. This is NOT a cell booster. It is a combination Router and WiFi with a super ability to locate signals. Like a cell phone but with much more powerful antenna that are external. It is not dependent on a park or campground antenna, but uses cell towers with the ability to pull signal at 4k and HD from great distances. Still doing my research...A lot of recent You Tube video on this technology new to RV and Boating............If anyone get this prior to August let me know how it works......THANKS OLIVER FAMILY!

On the qualitative scale, our 3000 is “noticeable” but I don’t think about it until it shuts off.

Use your preferred marine caulk, but keep some caveats in mind. Don't use 3m 5200. 5200 shouldn't be used in any situation that's not permanent. Too difficult to remove. Besides, it's not a good choice as a sealant, anyway. Don't use any polyurethane caulk, as polyurethane doesn't play well with acrylics and polycarbonate. Some formulas just don't stay affixed. Others actually attack the plastics. We've been using loctite marine fast dry, lately, as it tested well in Practical Sailor. Not as easy to use as silicone based, but I am personally not a fan of silicon with fiberglass. Lots of people do like it, it's easier to use, and I have read that some of the marine silicone will last for years. West Marine did a good article on choosing the right sealant for the job at hand: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/How-to-Select-Sealants-and-Caulk I usually research any new sealants we're looking at on Practical Sailors testing reports.

On our most recent outing one of our battery tray latches failed. The pin on the left/fore side of the battery tray was totally missing as was the rivet/pin on which the rear of the latch pawl pivots. Fortunately I found the latch pawl itself loose in the battery compartment. Our temporary fix to get us home included tie wraps and, of course, duct tape to secure the latch pawl in place. The right (aft) side battery tray latch was not affected. Until such time we can arrange a permanent repair, I'm confident that our semi-permanent solution pictured below will serve to keep the tray secure. It consists of a stainless steel anchor shackle holding the latch pawl in place so that it cannot be raised whatsoever, thereby preventing the battery tray from sliding out. I found that the 3/16" shackle fits perfectly, with the anchor shackle pin fitting snugly in the holes. For reference the particular shackle I used is made by National Hardware, #N100-347 and available at Lowe's. Hopefully this information is helpful to those who may experience the same failure. Be safe everyone. - Brian

Hello to the Oliver world, my wife and I have been a fan of the trailers and the craftsmanship for a few years. We're pleased to be able to become the new owners of Hull #36, bringing it back to TN after a long stay in MN where is was taken care of wonderfully be Kent and Mary, and Terry and Catherine before them as I understand it. Very gracious and interesting folks who have treated us so well during our transfer. We live in East TN, a few hours drive from Hohenwald. We have lots to learn and are excited to start this new chapter. We've been T@B owners for many years, and love our T@B and it's community. But as our life changes, we believe this is a great next next step. Lee and Linda

Hi all. Garageboy here from the North of Dallas. Looking to buy a previously loved Ollie II. Pretty hard to find. Just have to live vicariously thru forum owners. Nice to be here!

After recently upgrading to new 30 gallon LP tanks I decided to add a thin piece of rubber door mat to the shelf that the bottom tank rings sit on. I simply patterned it and cut it to fit the shelf. $4 for the mat at Wally World and 15-20 minutes to install. This should help prevent metal on metal corrosion from forming between the bottom of the LP tank ring and the metal shelf. I lightly sanded and cleaned the shelf, taped it off, and shot it with a rattle can coat of flat black rust preventive paint. Happy Camping!

Hi SeaDawg, I have not seen an Oliver in-person yet. Anita offered to put me in touch with one nearby and I will probably do that. I'm pretty good at imagining myself in different spaces but will take your advice next week when Anita returns. Thank you--and everyone else for your thoughtful suggestions. Pennie

Pennie, have you seen an Oliver yet? Especially our smaller Elite? We looked at literally a hundred trailers before we saw the Ollie, back in 2007 and 8. It's really important, imo, before you commit, to see, touch, and imagine yourself in the space. Living in a travel trailer is life in miniature. We're very happy, but you need to make sure it's good for you, especially if you go full time. To me, its perfect. Compact. Everything we need. Not a lot more. We add what we need, but thoughtfully consider any big changes If you haven't seen one yet, Anita can get you in touch with an Elite owner somewhere near you.

I'm really fond of that area, too. People in Banner Elk have all been great. Two of our best friends lived there for a long time, out by Hound's ear, but have moved back to Florida. We've rented cabins on Seven Devils during ski season. The only place we've ever camped nearby was Plumtree, and we'd like to try some other places.

I appreciate the ingenuity on display here, but I wonder if just caulking around the interior window frame wouldn't send the water into the basement rather than the bed? The bed wetting provides a good indicator that it's time to caulk the light; but water in the basement is easier to live with.

My technique has been to take the trailer to Oliver for something else, and they'll put a new screen in for you. I keep taking the screen off to improve the view, and Oliver keeps adding it back. I have a collection of three in the basement now.

Ditto Landrover's comment. A "smack your forehead" improvement. David Savageau #591

Well it took them several tries, but they've at least found an excuse that's believable.

Hi SeaDawg! I have been pouring through your many, many informed posts on the forum with great regularity and appreciate the wealth of knowledge you bring, most recently the thread on sealants and the rear lens repair. You know your stuff! I am learning a lot here and unless lightning strikes and I get a "move up" the list once I place my deposit next week, it looks like I have nearly a year until delivery. With the three remaining synapses I possess, I hope to absorb a lot during that year. 😂 I will be living in my LE full-time, so post-warranty and regular maintenance, I will have learned so much more. I look forward to performing any tasks in my capabilities and will ask for help here when warranted. I take your words seriously--no salt needed--and really appreciate how much you contribute to this forum. You're a jewel! Thank you! Pennie

I don't know. Patience has never been a virtue of my own, but I've definitely run into a few fellow travelers who deserved not only a mean mug, but perhaps a vigorous finger wag as well. To the original post, I'd say that whenever you're in a situation where you're holding someone up, ask your partner to go over and ask if they'd like you to let them by. My guess is that the offer in itself would be enough to diffuse any tension.

Thank you Overland! At my tender age and life experiences, I can easily be a charter member of the insane group--lol! I am reading many posts about repairs like crazy (fits right in), gleaning whatever I can remember. I will be needing help with diagnoses/repairs--of that I am sure--to try to retain whatever synapses remaining. 😅 Thanks again for your kind words. Pennie

I heard a rumor that Oliver was thinking about offering it. I have one - we had an owner on the forum four or so years ago who could get them for owners at wholesale. So relative to what we paid, that’s a remarkably expensive price. Plus cradlepoint now requires a subscription service plan for support. It’s a great little device - really love ours - but it would be difficult to recommend at that price. And I’d never recommend it for anyone who’s not comfortable with complex tech. It’s a professional router that’s designed for corporate clients whom they assume have dedicated and trained staff to maintain it. User friendly it is not. I’d say that nice though it is, even if Oliver is offering to pay the subscription support costs, give it a hard pass and don’t look back. Satellite internet is way too close to spend a chunk of money on an expensive cell router.

Thanks Bill! I appreciate your thoughts. I've read how much support this group has--the reason I joined and have felt comfortable posting. not lurking I do plan on sticking around nearby Oliver after picking up the LE, running through the various systems and will head back to the factory if there are problems or questions. You are indeed fortunate to have your wealth of experience in your working background. And, I hope to have common sense (so uncommon--lol) to cope with things on my own on the road. Thanks again for your support and positivity. Pennie

Pennie, Don't be in a hurry to head home after picking up Ollie. Stay at the local campground one or two extra days in case there are any initial issues to be corrected. It's possible Ollie may need to be towed back to Oliver to have a simple issue corrected, too. The job I retired from was involved with industrial machine rebuild, manufacture, R&D, pneumatics, electrical, and hydraulics. My Wife does not consider herself to be mechanical, but she is happy to help me with many projects. During these projects she has fine and useful ideas without a mechanical background, just common sense. With the support group you have here, you will do great!

From our some what limited experience internet service at campgrounds is spotty. Sometimes it is distance but often it is the number of users trying to access the internet at the same time. Slow, poor access, and constantly crashing. We finally gave up and used 1 phone a a hot spot and then migrated to a hot spot device that will support a handful of devices. Just my 2 cents. We have the Oliver Wi-Fi booster on our 2019 Ollie. Knowing what I know now I am not sure that was $600 well spent. We have the cell booster too.

An important caution about 3M 4200 from the manufacturer “Note: Alcohol will interfere with the curing process and extra care must be taken when using alcohol as a cleaning solvent to prevent any contact with the sealant.” https://3m.citrination.com/pif/000890?locale=en-US I continue to use and like this stuff, maybe some issues result from misapplication by people using isopropyl alcohol to prep the surfaces…? 3M Adhesive Cleaner (08984), $15 per quart at your local automotive paint supplier, is a great choice and it won’t hinder the cure. It is really important to read these product labels carefully, don’t proceed blindly. John Davies Spokane WA

Twist likes it too!

My visit to the Oliver showroom was a couple of months ago and I was indeed distracted by the x3000 fan noise. The staff had used the ollie over the weekend for an office/workspace and the batteries were run down quite a bit. Upon hooking to shore power the inverter started doing it's thing to charge the lithium batteries. I tracked down a salesperson to ask about the noise and it was the first time they had noticed and were going to investigate but we left before hearing the outcome. I hope it's not a common occurrence, I think it would be a deal breaker for us.

Paul and I just talked (again) tonight about sealants, and our many (20 or more) ports and hatches on our 40+ year old sailboat. Many of the original ports are still fine, probably bedded with butyl, many years ago.. The few (4) plastic (acrylic or polycarbonate) ports we replaced with metal, 14 or 15 years ago, and were bedded with good quality butyl. We've never caulked any of the butyl bedded ports, old or new, and they don't leak. This is the source of my love affair with butyl.

We too found that a partially extended Girard forms pools in the rain (we have the sunbrella material). I noticed that a partially extended awning does not have as much of a front-back angle as a fully extended one (which could contribute to the pooling), but I'd be reluctant to leave the awning fully extended in a rainstorm.

I too asked about electrical diagrams at delivery about a month ago, and was politely told no. And was also told that they change frequently, other trailer manufacturers don't provide them, and most technicians can figure it out. The 2020 and 2021 manuals do have battery wiring diagrams, but not for lithium.

🤣🤣

Csevel Nice find i just ordered a set. In 2019 Oliver supplied a set of quick connects they didn’t last long always leaked. I also ordered the dust caps another nice find Thank you for sharing.

Will Prowse posted this youtube this morning, reviewing Renogy mppt controller/b2b charger.

We stopped over at Great Basin NP on our way home from Utah last week . . . . . mainly because it was half-way between Cannonville (our last Utah stopover) and Lamoille, NV (where we were meeting one of my HS friends), but also because the sites were FCFS (until Memorial Day weekend). We chose to stay at Baker Creek. There were several sites available, but we had a hard time finding one anywhere near level. As it was, we had to jack the Oliver's front up quite a bit. The sites were all gravel, which is fine, but apparently the NP system doesn't understand the need for levelness. We tried two pull through sites, entering from both directions before we found an orientation that sort of worked. Some of the problem is that our SD longbed crew cab is hard to maneuver into pull-through sites that have a good curve to them. Before leaving, we drove up to Wheeler Peak and checked out both of the Lehman CGs. I thought the Upper CG was better than Baker Creek as the sites were all paved and appeared to be more level; it looked well maintained. Lower Lehman seemed a bit neglected. We did enjoy the change in scenery, after nearly two weeks of desert, canyons and red rocks; the wildflowers, at the campground elevation (7,500') were fantastic - there were meadows full of Sunflowers, Lupine, and Indian Paintbrush. We also had numerous encounters with marmots, deer and a variety of birds. We also met a couple (ironically from Bend, Oregon) who asked how we like our Oliver. They had a shorter version Lance, but with a slide out and way more room than they need, and Oliver is at the top of their list. They were thrilled when we offered them a "look-see" (the wife confessed that she had adamantly told the husband "not to ask for a tour"!) As an aside, we found S. Utah to be overwhelmed with campers; too much for our taste. Fortunately we had made reservations because everything was full, including the popular boondock sites. We didn't even attempt to see Arches or Bryce Canyon; we did spend a couple of days at Capitol Reef, which was not too busy. All of the trailhead parking throughout the entire southern region was full and overflowing; we inquired at the Escalante visitor center where a ranger gave us some suggestions for hiking areas that are less frequented: The Red Canyon Arches trail was awesome. Additionally, the state parks (Dead Horse Point and Kodachrome were not crowded, if you got there early. We drove several scenic routes along the way - Colorado River Hwy 128 (again, all the campgrounds were full); Hwy 313 to Dead Horse Point, and Hwy 12 from Torrey to Cannonville. We were able to drive through the Cedar Breaks (the road had just recently opened) and we drove out BLM road 500 from Cannonville and hiked through the Willis slot canyon; the road was decent and had been recently graded. After returning to pavement, we decided to drive the 11 miles out Cottonwood Canyon Road to see the Grosvener Arch. The road was terribly wash-boardy; it took us nearly an hour to reach the arch, but it was well worth it; again, not many people there. It seems that getting off pavement is the trick to avoiding crowds. The final leg of our trip was spectacular; we took Hwy 50 from Utah to Ely, NV, then through the Ruby Valley (east side of the Ruby Mountains), over a pass, and down into the Lamoille Valley. Such a beautiful place; I've been wanting to visit since my girlfriend moved there a few years ago and so glad we did. We spent the night at Thomas Canyon CG (USFS) - yes, we had reservations. Our only disappointment was the last day on the trip home when we decided to spend the night at Virgin Valley, NV. My husband usually stops there when he's passing through on his motorcycle; there is a "warm spring" with a pool and always on warm showers - free camping in the Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge. FCFS (always) and rarely more than a couple of campers. However, being the Friday of the Memorial Day holiday, it was full - and, again, way too many people. We spent a quiet night at the rest area just west Virgin Valley. We are home for a time, now: with grandkids graduating, family commitments, physical therapy (long story), and garden planting. Have you tried purchasing raised bed soil this season? Yet another Covid shortage. I guess I'll have to resort to using our barn compost and deal with the weeds. Or, perhaps I could sell it on Craigslist 😎

+1 One of my fondest memories of my father ... Parents + 5 kids in a station wagon...just drove in from east jesus for our yearly camping trip...everyone exhausted and ragged...we can see the campsite where we are about to set up our tent...some fancy dude with some giant trailer thing can't get out of the road...what else could go wrong... Dad gets out of the car and just goes all "Ain't life beautiful" on everyone who will listen. "No place I'd rather be!" I was 12 and Dad was cool. There may be no answer when you are the guy backing in. But there certainly is when you are the guy waiting.

When considering a tow vehicle the first number most folks look at is towing capacity. While this is important it's not all there is to it. One needs also to look at the vehicle's cargo carry capacity or payload capacity (CCC/PC). This is all the cargo weight that you can safely add in addition to your truck’s empty weight (also known as curb weight) including passengers. There are loads of information on the net explaining this and I won't try to duplicate it here. The easiest way to find what your particular vehicle is capable of carrying is to look inside the driver's side door for a yellow and white "tire" sticker. Look at the line that states "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed..." All the information on your vehicle's sticker will different than that of this example. But the stated CCC/PC is exactly correct for your vehicle as it was delivered from the factory. You have probable added a few items since you acquired your vehicle. Cell phone, charger, sunglasses, GPS, floor mats, hitch and ball mount, you see where this is going. Every ounce and pound comes out of that CCC/PC. Our Silverado 2500HD has a CCC/PC of over 2100 pounds. Prior to leaving for the Rally, I weighed every item going into the truck. I was over the CCC/PC by 200 pounds, not including the sunglasses and the cell phones. I am including here actually weights (to the nearest pound) that I recorded of my camping gear that I know many of you carry. 52...Andersen Hitch (I don't use, weight from the net) 40...Clam 5...Yellow Blocks 19...Zero Gravity Chair (each) 9...Bass Pro Chairs (each) 6...Patio Rug 21...Weber Grill 20...Extendable Ladder (10 foot) 20-40...Ball Mount and Hitch 200-250...Topper ???...Occupants and Pets 600-700...Tongue Weight ???...Tools 40...Extra Propane for grill or fire pit ???...Table ???...everything else you think you can't live without Add these all up and be prepared to be amazed at how much it all weighs. Just your tongue weight and occupants will probably get half of your CCC/PC. And remember, if you're in an accident and some slick lawyer decides you might have been overweight - and you were, don't be surprised if your insurance company tells you that you are on your own. Pray that you haven't hurt or killed anyone.

Steve, On our Elite (2015), the condensate drain off the AC unit was not connected to the condensate drain installed by Oliver. Oliver's drain line is a white pex line that diverts the condensate to the outside. I bought a piece of silicone tubing to fit (can't remember the exact size) and connected to two tubes. The black fitting goes to the exterior, the white is off the AC unit. If you remove the interior cover, you should be able to see if they are connected. Other than that, I've heard pine needles can cause issues up top. Remove the top cover and make sure everything is clean. Haven't done this in a while so sorry for the somewhat vague description! Good luck. Dave

That was a great repair you did csevel, very clean!! This whole lense issue seems seems to be a pita to me. They all eventually leak, and the way Oliver cuts them in is just not good practice. Referring to John's pic above, a square corner cut has no place in fiberglass work, especially work that is subject to the stresses that boats and trailers are. Why Oliver does not properly radius their corners really bugs me as I know they must know better. Square corners concentrate stresses to a point greatly increasing the likelihood of fracture. I already have small fractures in the gelcoat radiating out from my rear lense corners. In fact, all the cutouts in my trailer were hacked out with what looks like a sawzall! Some corners are even overcut! It is just poor workmanship plain and simple. It may seem trivial, but when I lift up my seat access panels and see overcut square corners, it just makes me feel bad, as I know Oliver could do so much better. And they should do better if they really want to live up to their claim of building a superior trailer, which I will admit, they almost do. But, they still have lots of room to improve.... Personally, I'd prefer a small light bar up there or nothing at all. Finally, I believe a continuous ribbon of good quality marine butyl tape with a tight, carefully scarfed butt joint will not leak (best done on a cool day). Follow up with a thin bead of 3m 4200 around the exterior perimeter to clean it all up and you should be good to go for a very long time. My 2 cents! Dave

I hope this goes to the right spot. First try at the forum I have been a big fan of the Oliver Trailer Forum. It seems unique with the ability to really get a great feel for the product. About 3 years since first contact with Oliver and two years bribing my wife to go to Hohenwald we are awaiting our September 2021 delivery. All of that to just say thanks to you all Especially the long timer Oliver Faithful. You folks and your helpful answers and attitudes I believe sell a lot of trailers. Start with a good product. Then with the g-force of you folks on the forum you can’t beat it. So with my Dream Girl by my side hope to see you some day on the road Tina and Mike

So, I figured out and fixed the problem with the air conditioner. Turns out that the bolt I found came off of one of the two forward facing motor mounts. This allowed the motor to twist a bit and had the front impeller scraping slightly against part of the plastic AC housing. The noise was super loud when we first heard it and "clanky" which was probably the impeller scraping the head of the bolt that sat loose, under the blades. Looks like no damage done. Reinstalled the bolt and added a nut with a little loctite to both the screw ends so they could not shake their way loose again. The bolts screw through a rubber doughnut style mount with nothing to hold them in place so I am betting I'm not the only one who has had this problem. Still plenty loud but that must be the native noise that always comes out of these units.

So after struggling and cursing at my caulking gun and the stupid thick expensive marine sealant above.. Ive had success! Used the sealant as the adhesive and the outer caulk line. A little more detailed cleanup and I will be golden!

UPDATE- Ok - I fixed my POS Dometic AC fan noise. The squirrel fan that feeds the interior had come loose on its shaft - allowing it to slide back and forth to scrape against the housing shroud - The tick tic is the fan. An allen set screw had loosened up just enough to allow the fan to slide. You need to remove the top side cover 4 Philips screws - then the insulated cover, it slides up, - then the plastic cover, 6 hex head screws. There are also some plastic tabs that need to be unclipped. The fan shaft will slide back and forth some - but the fan should be tight to the shaft - it should sit flush with the end of the shaft. You do not need to remove the interior cover. All ok now - jet engine dB's aside. RB

Coffee, and Tea for sure! We're on Keto diets for two years, no sugar and very little carbs. Occasionally we fall off of the "no sugar" wagon. 🙂 Bacon & eggs are OK! 👍

I second this. When we camp we eat like we do at home. Lots of beef, some salmon, brats (and sauerkraut), some chicken for fajitas. A few peppers, broccoli and brussel sprouts. All do well on the grill. Bacon and eggs for breakfast as well as full fat plain Greek yogurt topped with blueberries, cinnamon and sliced almonds. Snacks include humus and snap peas, various cheeses and sliced salami. Some Pinot Noir and/or Sauvignon Blanc (bottle or box) in the fridge and some Cabernet Sauvignon in the pantry. Desert is usually a square of 85% dark chocolate topped with a little peanut butter. Clean, not complicated. We can find what we like almost anywhere. And cashews…. almonds, pecans, Brazil nuts, walnuts! Mike

Whatever kinds of food you like to eat. And cashews. John Davies Spokane WA

For my money JD hit it squarely on the head - emergency should be the only reason to get agitated. - What your in a hurry to go sit in your flipping camp chair? please. But - todays cultural norms lead to very different expectations - me, me, me ,me..... Somewhere in Idaho- a very curvy and tight CG, a fellow in a very large MH was stopped squarely in the middle of the one way road. I waited a few minutes, nothing, I got out asked what was issue - MH would not start. I couldn't help, so my only recourse, back up to somewhere I could turn Ollie and me around. Getting upset had no benefits. Another time in Glacier - as I pulled up, and backed in to a site -- that the guy behind me thought was " a not gonna happen" - I nailed it first try (whew) he gave me a ovation. and they all went on their way. I am sure they were all groaning at first glimpse. Cindy and I continue to improve in the backing and parking phase - sometimes it is great sometimes it is not. We do our best - and try to give others the benefit of the doubt . I have a phrase for the impatient - but it is not for this forum. As Tony Horton says - do your best - forget the rest. RB