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We camp mostly in public campgrounds. National Parks are generally the most restrictive, size wise. Most have some sites that accommodate big rigs but an Elite II size camper can fit in most any site. State Parks vary but usually have larger sites. COE and USFS campgrounds also vary, the newer ones can fit about anything, but some of the older or more remote campgrounds can be restrictive. It’s not just the size of the campsite to consider but also maneuvering truck and trailer during the back in. There have been a number of times that the site was just long enough for our Oliver, but backing it in proved to be challenging due to the narrow road or obstacles. I watched a guy trying to back in a trailer, probably 28’ or so, into a spot at a Tennessee State Park and it took him a couple of hours. He tried everything, to include going around the loop several times to change his angle and also going the wrong way to see if that would work. His frustration was evident. Mike

Hi Dennis, We were also on the attack concerning a wet bath but actually don't mind it at all now. It does add to the moisture content inside the trailer, especially on rainy days, and drying the towels outside when you can helps a great deal. We were in a Casita for 2 years (full timers) and really, really appreciate the added room inside of our Elite II. We don't do the National Parks much ( crowds) but for the most part it has been very rare to find a spot too small. As Mike mentioned, maneuverability is important and we also have been in spots and had to disconnect to park alongside or in front of the trailer. So, going from the Casita to the Oliver leads us to believe we're inside a mansion every time we go inside. FWIW, IMO, if you think it's a little small and you really don't want the wet bath, you'll probably be unsatisfied with the Oliver. For us it the Cadillac of fiberglass and the service from Oliver is the best there is so we're as happy as we can be. You might consider renting a bigger rig and see how you like it before making a costly mistake. Another point is resale of a "stickie" vs fiberglass. Best of luck with your decision and retired life, John

After 4 years of camping and towing with our Elite II, I wouldn’t want to be towing anything any longer than 25’. The Oliver size gives a lot more freedom for travel overall and is still very well equipped and comfortable. And it’s not just about campground site choices, although that is a big factor, both for site options and cost at campgrounds. Longer/bigger spaces cost more at most campgrounds. It’s also taking into consideration things like getting in and out of gas stations, parking spaces at restaurants and other roadside stops and attractions, very narrow construction zones, etc. We have even encountered roads with length limits because of tight corner switchbacks on steep climbs. The Elite II is a nice comfortable compact trailer that is short enough, narrow enough and low enough to avoid most of the common obstacles you will encounter on the road like low clearance bridges, tunnels, etc. The Zion Mt. Carmel Tunnel in Utah is one example that we drove through. There is a 7’ 10” width limit and a 11’ 4” height limit. Anything over a combined length limit of 50’ for tow vehicle/trailer combinations is completely prohibited in the tunnel. Anything much bigger than towing an Elite II and you have to arrange (and pay for) the park rangers to allow special access with traffic temporarily changed to one direction only instead of two way traffic so larger vehicles can fit through the tunnel. My wife and I are both retired and we do extended trips of 4 to 5 weeks on the road and we are very comfortable in the Ollie. And we added a shower curtain with 3M command hooks so it gives us a “dry bath” setup. The shower curtain can be easily removed to take outside to dry.

That's where I thought we'd end up, having friends with both 17 and 21 Escape trailers. Which reminds me; we're still on the list to reserve one of the 23s! They're just now only making the second prototype, with at least one more to go before making 10 field trial units. Then production. Early last year I was expecting production in late '22, but now I'd bet late '23 might be even optimistic. And then there are the hundreds of people already on the wait list to place orders. Seeing what they're doing with the shower makes it not only tiny, but awkward to get to the bed, and for a 23, it seems like it will be crowded inside. Until I saw the Oliver, I didn't realize how open it makes a trailer feel having the bathroom across one end of the trailer! I'm so glad we ended up ordering the Oliver! Good luck in whatever you choose, @dennis

dennis - I too thought that the wet bath in the Oliver would be a show stopper for me. But, for the first time in recent memory 😁, I was completely wrong. Given the amount of time I spend in the bath versus the value of that same square footage used elsewhere for the rest of the day and the alternatives that are available for bathing, it really is a no-brainer (for me). It is amazing just how simple it is to "dry" the wet bath after showering and then I've got a "clean" shower too. If your travel plans include the western US then anything over that 25 foot mark becomes reasonably restrictive. Even here in the eastern US I believe that you will find both camping and traveling (towing) an RV over 25 feet to be much more taxing and generally less enjoyable. But, only you can make this decision. And, it depends on how and where you like to travel and camp. Bill

I have pulled into CG late (traveling, not 'camping') , and have the Ranger say we are mostly full. Look at the LE2 and say but we got a small site that you will fit into. Enjoy your evening...

As for the wet bath, it was a big concern of mine as well. I won't lie, I miss the big shower and dry bath in our last fifth wheel. Luxury. Being 6' myself, washing my hair in the Ollie requires bending over, which I don't love. However, so far the other Ollie advantages - including its compact size, quality, and solar/lithium - have outweighed the shower drawbacks. Last summer we got the last available site in a COE campground. It was designated as a tent/pop-up site but we fit just fine. This year we're staying in a state park we couldn't fit in before, even with our 27' travel trailer.

It really depends on your camping style. We love the size of the Oliver, especially the width which allows us to keep in at our house, we have a narrow driveway so the width was something we really wanted to stay 7’ or less. We spend most of our time outside and also have a pop up screen room which gives us added space even if it’s raining (it has side panels that can be attached). As for the wet bath, its actually quite large for a wet bath and with the curtain you can keep the half with the toilet area dry when showering. I do think if you are contemplating size and already feel that the Oliver may be too small and you are uncertain about a wet bath then I suggest renting a 25ft camper and a smaller camper and see how you feel in it. Try a wet and dry bath. It’s a big purchase and you certainly don’t want buyers remorse. If you are set on a dry bath and still want fiberglass look at the Bigfoots and Escape is coming out with a new 23 that has twin bed option and a dry bath. We love our Oliver and I don’t believe you can beat the quality and customer service but everyone’s likes/needs/wants are different, it’s just finding what’s is the right fit for you. Good luck with whatever you decide.

We also toiled over this topic for several years. We struggled with the "need" of more room inside and also the "need" to bring toys along. We were seriously considering a 25' ATC toy hauler to serve all those needs. Well long story short we concluded with time that where we really wanted to camp was more important than both the need to bring too much stuff along and also the need for extra living space. I'm not necessarily concerned with the smallish interior because we are traveling to enjoy the outside that we are traveling to. We will mostly just sleep in the camper and clean up. But the rest is outside or away from the camper and that's our priority. I don't have to worry about if we'll fit or can we get their with the rig. So to boil it down, where do you want to spend your time camping? Make sure your choice serves that primary purpose first. For our plans the Ollie is by far the best choice.

Don’t overlook the issue of maneuverability and width when visiting National Park campgrounds. I speak from experience of having gone into some campgrounds where the 8.5’ width and length of the other trailer I was considering (Bigfoot 25b25T) would have been a burden. The fact that the Ollie is 7’ wide and the wheels track close to that of the Tow Vehicle make for a very “sneaky” approach (as well as retreat if the need arises to back out of a twisty and narrow campground road). Sure, there are times I wish I had more room inside but ONLY when I am sitting inside the trailer. When towing down the road and finding a campsite I have never regretted the Oliver. I have camped in areas where I am certain I would not have been able to visit in the bigfoot. The right trailer for you is the one that gets you out camping. Best wishes in your decision

@dennis Glad you got to tour an LEll! In the summer of 2021 we traveled from our home in Western NC to Gulf Shores Alabama, then back home to restock. We then left on a trip to New England and camped in NY, NH, Vt, and Me reserving campgrounds along our route. In total we visited 16 states and 22 CG’s and were never turned away do to the size/length of our Oliver. So it really depends on what your travel and camping needs are going to be. We are totally fine with the wet bath vs a dry bath. Based on our experience and we are not experts by any stretch, the Oliver LEll works great for our needs. And as @johnwen mentioned the resale of an Oliver vs a stick built is worthy of consideration. All the best in your decision, Patriot 🇺🇸

But, do you still have an 8-Track recorder? If not, and you have a nostalgic itch for one, I can make you a hell of a deal. I’m also willing to let my Sony Betamax go and I’ll even throw in the stack loader that went with it. Oh, and brand new IBM Selectric.

The previous owner of my Ollie showed me the following storage procedure after he had a problem with the Ollie lights being on: Costs nothing. If you look at where the Oliver fiberglass hull is near the trailer's tongue, you will see there is a gap between the fiberglass and the trailer frame. This gap is big enough for the trailer plugs to fit up into and out of the weather. I have never had a problem with moisture or rain water storing it this way.

We had an Escape owner stop and look at our Oiver on his way home to Canada. Back then there was a concern about importing to Canada ( since solved). He asked if I would like to see his. After the Oliver it felt claustrophobic to me, but what really got me was the table. It was as shaky as my mother's old wooden ironing board. If the first thing you saw was that quality??

We purchased the shower curtain upgrade from Oliver. It works fine, although the curtain supplied is thin vinyl, which started to tear before we got home to Idaho from Tennessee. It can be replaced with a fabric curtain at some point. Yes, the bath is small. I am 6'0" and have grazed my head on the overhead bath fan when showering, as the bathroom floor is higher than the floor in the main cabin, limiting bath headroom. That is one of the tradeoffs. Yet, we remain pleased with our choice of the Elite II based, in part, on the size being "just right" for us, for the same reasons detailed by other posters above, including ease of towing, parking, fitting into some campsites, storage, etc.

Maybe I got carried away…. I decided at six years old the burner assembly was probably not safe to reuse, so I just gutted it. The steel mount flange would not come off without the hacksaw. Does anyone need a spare control board, main PCB unit, gas regulator, jet or sensors? Ignitor? Door, hinges or freezer door? It really is so VERY damned difficult to remove this fridge for servicing, and I heard that there are no replacement fridges available anyway(!!), that if you have to get to any part that is *** hidden *** from the outside access openings, you might as well just plan on scrapping the unit. As I plan to do. John Davies Spokane WA

My wife and I recently toured the LE2 near in Tampa. We are a year out from retirement and getting serious about purchasing something for multiple extended trips of a month or so per year. We loved the trailer and the Oliver staff. Except for the dry bath. (I know...That is another topic all to itself...) We have convinced ourselves the we "need" the next size up from LE2 to get what we want. Which leaves me with a puzzle. I'm convinced that where we are going (mostly national parks or similar) the bigger our footprint, the more limited our options when picking a park, a campground or the individual site within. But I think it's a smooth curve. Backpack is best. Car with a tent is next. Then teardrop. Etcetera, all the way up. Each step eliminates some options the previous setup offered. But my son thinks I'm naïve. He has trailering friends who advise that 25' is a magic number. South of it, most of the National Park System is your oyster. Anything bigger and you are suddenly limited to the Walmart-parking-lot in the largest and most sterile campgrounds (assuming they let you in the park at all). From all I've read, I'm pretty confident I'm right. But I was wondering if anyone here had an "expert" opinion. Thanks for your time. This is a great forum. (I've been "lurking" for quite some time 🙂 )

That video is for an older analog version, not the new digital Intelligent one. The old one does indeed require lots of work. The new one needs a single hole in the fridge I think. Not counting the holes to mount the display, I am going to put mine under the microwave. John Davies Spokane WA

That is why I was going to make a drop-in tray which would be very easy to remove to clean up. It would probably need a rubber pad on top, like the cabinets. Any junk down deep comes out with a shop vac. If I can’t locate suitable soft storage bins, I can always use small duffles or stuff sacks. I have the basics for woodwork, I can rip and route and drill press, but the cuts don’t always go exactly where I planned. John Davies Spokane WA

I use the one like Frank C has near the top of this thread. When traveling we usually allow plenty of time and dont mind taking the wrong turn somewhere. After all we are exploring this great country so many times it isnt really a wrong turn so much as going a different way...lol

We've had a few double pane windows fog. We did not replace them. We took our trailer to Suncoast Designs in Hudson, and they pulled the offending windows, resealed, and reinstalled. Much more economical than window replacement. (I checked.) There are companies that do similar work around the country. Mind you, my trailer is 15 years old next month. Fogging occurred on the sunny side windows a couple years ago, at over 100k of travel. I do think the double/thermal pane windows make a difference. I have triple glass at sticks and bricks home, in Florida.

I was thinking JB weld and Super glue... LOL Just kidding. Right call on the cut out vs. trailer disassembly. GJ

Have to agree. The 54 Chevy and 67 Firebird have them. In my truck they would be a piece of heaven

I want wing windows back.

That is brilliant, thank you, I think my wife will go for that over a drawer. John Davies Spokane WA

I guess at this stage I would recommend shoe cubby. That seems like an option with lots of uses, and you could always convert to a drawer in the future if you feel the space would be more useful.

Well, I took on the challenge of replacing the bearings and races in my 2021 Elite I. It was actually not bad at all. Took a couple of hours on the first wheel because I was careful to check and double check each step to make sure things were correct. . Second went much faster. The original set of bearings appeared fine and had “China” imprinted on them but don’t know enough to comment on their quality. I used Timken products all the way around along with Redline CV-2 grease. Repacks will apparently be even quicker since the races aren’t removed and replaced. Anyway, definitely a DIY project if you’re physically able.

It depends where you are. Out west a lot of the forested national park campgrounds were built when trailers were small and 25 feet is probably a pretty good top number. Above that your choices will be limited. Different for dry camping in the desert and commercial campgrounds.

Isotherm Intelligent Temperature Control It sounds very interesting, I just ordered one. Free shipping and no Washington sales tax (9%) from that vendor, woohoo. I don’t know if Oliver installs these on the 2023 hulls, any comments? Up to 25% energy savings solely due to compressor efficiency gains Up to 40% energy savings with combined effect of cold energy surplus stored in food / drinks Basically it controls compressor speed and it will “supercool” the food when a surplus of energy is available (solar) and it idles the rpm way down or off when the batteries take over the load. Plus you don’t have to open the door to make changes, which always dumps cold air out onto your toes. I can see myself keeping some extra big bottles of water or soda in there for more thermal mass…. LOTS of info here including docs and a video https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=4161337 It looks quite nice and the installation is very simple, the hardest part is drilling 1” holes to make the flush mount opening. John Davies Spokane WA

I know this doesn't solve your internet needs, but we've been using and aerial for television at home for over 10 years. At our new place we are about 35 miles east of Indianapolis and are able to get around 40 stations. Many of those are high def, but of course any older programming is in lower def. regardless. Programs like NFL, Nascar, PGA, local and national news come in with spectacular clarity. The Menards in Avon, OH has the antenna we use in stock if you are ever interested in making the jump. https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electronics/antennas/televes-dat-boss-attic-outdoor-tv-antenna/149884/p-1642874256695741-c-1454940301502.htm?tid=5189128745463378719&ipos=18

We wished we had a good Oklahoma road atlas last November when Google Maps took us on a wild goose chase, on gravel roads, trying to find a Harvest Host site outside Oklahoma City. We now plan to buy a good paper road atlas, so we can double-check questionable Google Maps instructions.

I'm with Mike & Carol - 7 and fine. Bill

Share and Enjoy !Shares Winterizing your travel trailer is extremely important. It ensures that your trailer can withstand harsh conditions without damage, but it also gives you peace of mind knowing your trailer will be ready to hit the road during the summer months. Plus, if you don't get your trailer ready for winter properly, you run the risk of extensive damage that can cost an arm and a leg to fix. You should follow a few steps closely if you want to make sure your travel trailer is in the best shape possible for the winter months, so we've compiled this list of everything you need to know. 1. Check the Tires Checking your trailer's tires is the first thing you should do to get it ready for winter. Make sure that the tire tread still looks good and that the tires have plenty of air. If your tires are in poor condition, it’s important to replace them before you hit the road during the summer months. You should also check the wheel bearings and brakes to ensure they’re in good working order. 2. Prepare the Interior Once you’ve inspected the tires and brakes, it’s time to turn your attention to your trailer's interior. Start by deep cleaning everything and removing any debris or dirt. If you’re storing your trailer for the winter, removing any food items or other perishable items is also a good idea. Additionally, you may want to consider installing a dehumidifier to keep the air inside your trailer from becoming too dry. 3. Inspect the Exterior You'll want to inspect the outside of your trailer before you put it away for the winter. Make sure to check the roof, windows, and doors for any signs of damage, then if you notice any cracks or holes, seal them up. Winter brings a lot of rain and snow in many places, and the last thing you want is to deal with water damage when you're ready to head out on your first camping trip of the season. It’s also important to inspect your windows and doors to make sure that they are properly sealed. If they're not, take care of it as soon as possible. 4. Insulate Your Trailer If you want to keep your trailer warm during the cold months, you'll want to insulate it. While this isn't completely necessary, some people choose to do it, especially if they use their trailer during the winter. Insulation will help keep your trailer's interior warm and cozy during the winter and can be especially beneficial if you plan to do any winter camping. 5. Add a Heater Adding a heater to your travel trailer is another great way to keep it cozy during winter. There are a variety of different types of heaters available, so make sure to do your research and choose the one that’s best for your trailer. If you're looking to have one installed, the professionals at Oliver Travel Trailers can help. If your trailer already has a heater, that's great! Just make sure you're familiar with how it works and how to maintain it. 6. Protect the Batteries The batteries are what essentially keep your trailer running, so it’s important to protect them when it's cold outside. Make sure to keep the batteries charged and stored in a dry place to prevent them from freezing. You should also check the battery terminals and clean them if necessary. Battery issues can be a major inconvenience when you're trying to go camping and they can be expensive to replace, so it's very important to take good care of them. 7. Keep an Eye on the Weather Finally, it’s important to keep an eye on the weather before you hit the road. Make sure to check the forecast for any dangerous weather conditions and plan your route accordingly if you plan on doing any winter camping. You'll also want to bring extra supplies on your adventure just in case you come across any inclement weather or issues along the way. As long as your trailer is prepped for cold weather, you should be good to go. 8. Winterize the Trailer Here’s a step-by-step guide on how to winterize your trailer: Prepare Your Trailer: Before winterizing your trailer, make sure you have a few supplies handy – such as antifreeze, rags, and a funnel. This will help make the process easier. Additionally, make sure your trailer is properly supported and level before you begin. Drain the Freshwater System: To begin, you will need to drain the freshwater system. Start by turning off the water pump and all of the faucets. Then, open the hot and cold valves on the water heater, and allow the water to drain out. You may need to use a wrench to loosen the valves. Once the water has drained out, close the valves and turn the pump back on. Add Antifreeze: Now it’s time to add antifreeze to the trailer’s freshwater system. Start by locating the city water connection and opening the valve. Then, use a funnel to slowly add antifreeze to the city water connection. Keep adding antifreeze until you see it coming out of all of the faucets. Once you’ve done this, close the city water connection and move on to the next step. Flush the Toilets: To flush the toilets, pour a gallon of antifreeze into the bowl then wait a few minutes and flush the toilet. The antifreeze should fill the entire bowl and then start draining out. Continue flushing the toilet until the drain is clear and the antifreeze has drained out.Drain the Gray and Black Water Systems: Locate the drain valves for both tanks and open them. Then, use a hose to connect the drain valve to a bucket or the ground. Allow the tanks to drain completely, then close the valves and disconnect the hose. By taking the time to get your travel trailer ready for winter, you can ensure that it’s in the best condition possible for the cold months ahead. Taking the necessary precautions can also help to ensure that you and your family have a safe and enjoyable camping experience, even if you're going during the off-season. If you are looking for a travel trailer or need more tips on how to best prepare for winter, reach out to Oliver Travel Trailers. We are more than happy to help you with any type of camping assistance you may need, whether it's purchasing a trailer or winterizing your current one. Share and Enjoy !Shares The post How to Prepare Your Travel Trailer for Winter appeared first on Oliver Travel Trailers. Read the Full Article

PM sent back. The parts are spoken for. John Davies Spokane WA

In these days of shrinking campsite availability, it's really nice to know that our Ollies fit in spaces that others have to reject. We've been given, and found, some really awesome campsites, over the years, in small but beautiful sites.

I bought an Optronics 7-way trailer harness plug for our new Elite II. But, the opening is too small for the 7-way female plug Oliver installed on our Hull #1291. I had to increase the inside diameter of the plug protector by about 1mm, using a small drum sander chucked into a Mototool, to enable the factory 7-way plug to fit into the inside the plug protector. So, be prepared to modify the Optronics plug protector for use with an Oliver.

My wife would nix the "shoe cubby" idea, calling it a "dust catcher" that would be hard to clean. To maintain marital harmony, I would find myself doing the extra framing for another 6" Oliver drawer. She would point out that the drawer makes more of its contents accessible. With the cubby, anything more than 12" behind the front vertical plane of the fridge is realistically inaccessible down at floor level, unless it is on a "pull-out." The 6" Oliver drawer could also look like a factory installation, if done carefully. But, I am a woodworker, with a cabinet-grade Sawstop, router table, planer, etc. The framing would be a fun winter project for me. For many others, maybe not so much.

John - I have looked closely at this Isotherm for the last six months and have never seen/heard of this item. It sounds like a nice product and I am interested but not sure of what level of integration I am willing to endure for a brand-new trailer (in March). Thanks for the share, very interesting. Brian

Even though I love my drawer, I think the shoe storage cubby is an excellent idea. Right inside the door, probably even enough height for boots, on their sides. I'd probably want a boot tray on the floor that I could remove and clean, or one of those fabric cases from IKEA that I could pull out and wash. Bonus of the fabric case would be hiding the clutter, and keeping everything contained in transit, and being able to keep favorites from finding their way to the far back of the recess. Something like these:

Santa: For Christmas can I get the Tall Boy version of the TruckFridge that would fill the whole cavity?

When Oliver replaced our original Norcold with the Dometic, they told me they had to remove the door frame to do the swap. Also, (because we have an Elite 1) they had to remove the shower wall. The tightest pinchpoint for us is the space between the shower wall and the microwave cabinet. When we replaced the Dometic ourselves, Paul took it out in three pieces, and we didn't have to remove the door frame. But, our fridge was dead, and yours still works, so you likely want to keep it in one piece and sell it.... I would verify with service, as we probably have the same door rough opening, but I can't be certain of that. The good news is, the indel 130s fit through the door with the door frame installed, and just barely fit between the microwave cabinet and shower wall, as well. 🙂

@johnwen that is great news! We are scheduled on the books at Oliver service for the retrofit in May. PM sent! 😊 Patriot 🇺🇸

If you happen to enter a state, where their welcome center is, you can usually get a great map too. A plus is a campground guide and sometimes forgotten points of interest. Unfortunately most of them now are off the Interstates, and we have a tendency to avoid them...

Sometimes with interesting results!! We were using a Garmin to get to Twin Falls, Idaho a few years back, and it tried taking us across the service road across the Snake River at Shoshone Falls! But 1), it isn't public, and 2), it doesn't go all the way across! But the interesting part was that we ended up going across BLM land on the north side, where Evel Knievel was supposed to land on his ill-fated rocket bike. You can see the launch ramp across the river. We still have a land line, answering machine, film camera, mechanical typewriter, car with a carburetor and manual shift, and probably some 8-track tapes stuck in a box somewhere. 🤪

I have used paper maps to save me many a mile of useless travel "suggested" by the electronic device. It was especially nice that time in the mountains when the Garmin didn't know the rain had totally washed out the road. (Backing down the mile and a half to a barely adequate turnaround was fun too). The paper map probably saved us 40 miles of so from the "suggested" alternative...

We always carry a Road Atlas and paper maps as a back up for use in combination with our Garmin 890 GPS. The paper maps can really come in handy on those roads less traveled. Lucky me, my bride and “navigator” is an excellent map reader. We dropped our land line and answering machine several years ago after retiring. Zero regrets as we really don’t miss any of the silly random political and marketing calls at especially dinner time or worse in the middle of the night. Only cell phones now. Patriot🇺🇸

they make a new and improved portable version of the wall phone now

Never came back and posted the results of our service to the thread. When we got home I called Truma, and they had us take our trailer to a local RV center that is a certified dealer. After consultation between the tech on site and Truma, they decided to replace the entire unit. There was never a really clear diagnosis, and Truma had the original shipped back to their engineering group for analysis. Unfortunately, a series of miscues and a novice service advisor made the replacement process take about three months. 😞 Ultimately we have a brand new unit, the warranty has been restarted, and Hull 1030 “Reset” has hot water again. One note when doing this type of replacement - make sure if you have the winter kit you assure that the kit is transferred to the new unit. In our case the tech shipped it back with the old unit - since the instructions said “ship all parts back.” After some back and forth Truma sent a brand new one which was easy to install. So - in the end I don’t feel like I can enlighten the group as to what the problem was, since the RV Tech and Truma really did not have anything definitive. In my limited experience that says “logic board” but it could be anything. I will say that the Truma customer service was great - very open and communicative and willing to get involved with the dealer when things bogged down.

30 years of land navigation in the army, usually with at 1:50,000 folded map sheet, trained my brain to be comfortable with a paper map. I like my GPS’s for turn by turn directions, but we also carry a big atlas with us for planning and exploring alternate routes. Mike

What is the price of the 2023 demo at and what is the price of a comparable model new. All I remember is that my 2019 model Elite II was $54,900 for the base model. As far as a 28' model, Oliver would have lost there mind, when you can sell all you can produce the cost of tooling would take a lifetime to recoup there cost. I think all the upgrades are good for a new buyer, but it comes at a big cost to the buyer, not sure that $25,000 plus dollars makes camping that much better over time. I know that our 2019 Elite II everything works just fine and I don't think all those upgrade items would make much difference in camping, it's still camping isn't it. trainman