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I would like to add that the value of this forum is as great as factory service in helping me solve occasional problems. For example, this past weekend I ran into what I thought was a serious issue but quickly found that someone else had experienced the same issue and provided the solution on this forum....and poof! Problem solved. Interestingly, the original problem while reported to factory service was only solved by the owner himself. Given the outstanding expertise of our factory service folks, this was a rarity but proved once again the value of this forum. Do we have RV tech shortages? Yes. Are RV techs typically paid poorly by dealerships with lack of training? Yes. Are there risks with the new service model? Yes. But, do we still have each other and this forum? YES!

I’m new to the Oliver community, just 7 months into my new-to-me LE1, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I offer them with some humility, honestly. Here’s my thought: I'm surprised at the negativity about the developing Oliver sales and service model. My own service experience is quite limited to a week in Hohenwald a month ago - we’d timed it to launch our current 5 week camping trip. Our planning went back to a service request 4 months ago. When the date came, we traveled 2 days to get to Hohenwald, and then had to find accommodations for 4 nights for me, my spouse and our dog to wait out the 3.5 days our upgrades and annual servicing would take. We were happy with the results and the knowledgeable team we met, but would have been much happier if a regional Oliver dealer was available for a “drop it off and come back in a few days to pick it up” kind of servicing last winter. The jobs we had done (lithium & Truma AC upgrades & annual servicing) would have been well within the ability of a competent and well trained regional dealership. When the dealership expansion was announced, I did contact such a regional Oliver dealer in lower Va. They told me they had not yet been trained for servicing, so I kept my March appt at Hohenwald in place. I thought, “Training dealerships has got to take some time. Check back with the regional dealer in a year and they should be up to speed.” That seems (to me) a reasonable expectation for the Oliver community, with widespread benefits for Oliver owners like me in the years ahead. From what you all are repeatedly saying about the Oliver family and team, I’d have a high confidence that they share that goal. If everyone’s experience with the Oliver team in the past has been so widely appreciated, why not give them the benefit of the doubt? In the meantime, I feel confident that I have a backstop if I get caught - you all. I’ve been a regular reader (if an infrequent poster) in the Oliver forums over the last half year. I’ve seen you all step in again and again to help people like me, who are trying to make something work better, or fix something broken. The generosity, creativity, competence, and enthusiasm of the Oliver owners was a factor in my purchase. Were I in Oliver management, I would hope for your partnership in making this expansion as seamless and fruitful as possible. i suspect as a newcomer to the Oliver community I’m missing something here - maybe it’s the longstanding friendships that have developed in the Oliver community. Maybe it’s something else. I just hate to see a much loved team with a first class product and a devoted family of owners fracture like this when some (well deserved) trust and some months of patience and a “let’s do what we can to make this work” attitude could make a good thing even better.

I’ve been quiet about this issue, I don’t like it and wish it wasn’t the path forward. I don’t know of any of the moderators that thinks this is “good for Oliver owners”. I’ve missed the “many” favorable comments by my fellow moderator team. I think it’s being blown out of proportion by some. In 8 years I’ve been back to Hohenwald for service work just once, a two day drive. Everything else was done by me or a local RV repair shop. We’ll still have technical expertise that we can access from Oliver. I’m going to watch and see how this plays out. Oliver management is not abandoning owners, my experience over the years is that they go out of their way to ensure owners are taken care of. Mike

From past experience, I suspect that OTT will be updating us on this spring issue. My recommendation is that if you must replace your springs now, do so. But if you have the luxury of time, I suggest awaiting what OTT's investigation reveals. But DO take some time to inspect your springs. I have taken the liberty of plagiarizing all I could find info about our spring replacements. Additionally with the assistance of MaxBurner (Art) we have incorporated his replacement procedure into the attached DIY MS Word document. . For the attachment, If you find any info that we collectively have missed, please PM Art and I and we'll make it better. If of wider concern, post it here in the forum DYI - OE2 Replacement Springs Replacement with Art's Install Procedure (1 APR 2024).docx Good luck, GJ and MaxBurner.

We just returned last week from another camping trip down in the southwest. Great time, with great hikes and weather although the first few days were a bit more chilly than normal. Hit some of our past best hits, San Rafael Swell, ST George Area, and finally a new one which has been on my bucket list for a long time, Valley of Fire State Park in NV. Beautiful place but have to say we were surprised by the crowds even in mid week. Thought I might share several pix including a few taking on heaps of mud while traveling down 25-30 mile gravel roads in the outback. Thanks BLM campground at Swinging Bridge shot of mud bath mud was inches thick, started falling on its own weight. Once this stuff dries it is hard as a brick. Took over an hour of pressure washing and $20+ to get most but not all of it off swing bridge now retired swinging bridge pictographs

So I think I have fixed 99.9% of my issues. After cleaning the flow restrictors/pressure regulators that helped a lot but I decided to replace them with a hollow pipe (got it at Home Depot, I'm sure there were other ways to do this but this was simplest for me) so there is no restriction. I purchased an external pressure regulator and have that set to 55psi and will use that going forward. I also replaced the faucet head in the bathroom and I have great flow/pressure almost everywhere now. The one place I think the flow/pressure could be better still is the toile. I did try cleaning the filter/screen as was suggested in an earlier post, but I couldn't figure out how to get the filter/screen out so I poured vinegar down the tube and let it sit for a few hours but it didn't seem to help. It's good enough though. The bowl doesn't hold water for very long so have to look into that. The last thing I found which I am sure contributed to a lot of my problems was the anode rod was way overdue to be replaced and water heater was full of scale/buildup. I flushed out the hot water heater, which took a while for stuff to stop coming out and the water to be clear then put in the new anode rod and tested the system and everything is working like new again. So what I have learned from all of this is it's very important to use a water softener and/or flush the lines regularly to avoid buildup. As I said earlier, I do think the cleaning the flow restrictors/pressure regulators made the most difference, when on city water, but I think its best to just replace them. That's probably why they don't have them in the 2018 and newer units. Be sure to use an adjustable external regulator just to be sure. When using the internal water pump cleaning/replacing the screens on the faucets or the faucet head itself made the difference. I did start with the faucets before moving onto anything else and that's what you need to do when diagnosing this kind of problem and remember to confirm you have the same problem on city water and you do with the water pump. I hope this helps someone who finds themselves in a similar situation.

Here's an attempt to post a smug mug link to some random pix and the GoPro vid from last Wednesday... The GoPro vid is 11 min - don't know if it will load... we'll see. I've reviewed both he pre- and post- installation vids. There is definitely more axle travel with the lighter spring packs - no surprise there. Subjectively, the "feel" under tow seems more solid. FYI: The above pic shows a couple of the original 4-packs made by "AXLE TEK"...It's interesting that these are not labeled as "DEXTER" springs packs. AXLE TEK also makes axles much like DEXTER. Somehow, we got a mixed bag - however, the 4 brake drum assemblies and spindles are DEXTER... Loading up now for the 1st leg to Dallas, enroute to the total eclipse in Purmela, TX. More later, stay safe, ALL!

............ and all of that was stated in Jason's message to the owners. I must be missing something. "Our customer support team will still be available to assist with any questions and work with you and our dealer partners to get any services you need resolved." "However, we will continue doing major repairs, including fiberglass and aluminum, at our Plant Facility." "If you have any questions or require further information regarding this update, please do not hesitate to contact us or call us at 1-888-526-3978. We are always here to assist you."

Sorry for the delays! Enjoy!

If anyone is in the St George area and has a little time - Look for the water tower that is located northeast of the center of town. Find a way to get to that water tower. Just prior (200 yards or so) to reaching the water tower there should be parking on the left side of the road. Park there, get out of the vehicle and start walking north (another 200 to 300 yards) - down a gentle slope to what is the bottom of an old stream bed. Walk the stream bed back to the east looking for tracks - big ones! Dino was here! Bill p.s. if it is anything like the last time I was there - do not take your Ollie. Both parking and turning around would be difficult. p.p.s. Snow Canyon (just west of St. George) is also a place to visit. p.p.p.s. GPS for the dino prints - 37.15604, -113.50169

Geoff. Well written. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Geoff: I support your well written post above. Sadly, the change of direction was NOT communicated well to those of us who are also fully invested in the OTT System. Further clarifications for OTT have been slow to seep out and that has obviously been more than a bit disruptive as a result. I support our Monitor's insightful thoughts and suggestions. After all this group have been with the Oliver's from the beginning. I strongly believe that OTT is hearing our concerns and will address them more clearly in information sent to us all DIRCTLY. That way all of us get the message intended and a better understanding as to where this great organization is going. I too am in this for life, and I look forward to working with Jason on Tech Services issues, but hopefully never for major rebuild and frame issues..... But knowing that OTT is there for us for these major problems and the what I call Technical Services is a wonderful start. Again, well written. GJ

Well stated. Thanks. I think people have been a bit more reserved here on the Forum.

Ok. Enough. I started this thread and I think it should end now. Everybody has a different level of comfort doing their own work, assessing cost/benefits, etc. Nobody seems to know for sure exactly what's going to happen. Nobody's been proven right, nobody's been proven wrong. We'll all just have to wait and see what comes next. There's no need for besmirching anyone's character or integrity. MODERATORS, can you lock this thread?

But what I, and I bet 90%+ of the owners need to hear from OTT Leadership, not our moderators, is that OTT pledges to continue supporting this forum as well as our and dealership access to Jason and his Tech Services team. Communication is of the essence for any quality organization.

Having had our entire suspension upgraded to new 5200# axles and all new running gear last Oct by Oliver, I have opted to purchase and just carry a spare leaf pack and new Ubolt. We have a local Dexter shop and they had plenty of 4 leaf spring packs in stock. So for $61.76 I purchased a spare leaf pack. I provided the tech with the SN’s of both my axles and requested a spec print or what I call a birth certificate my axles. This info goes into our travel binder. I would highly recommend getting this info from Dexter as it could come in handy while on the road. Hopefully I will never need to replace a broken spring. But it’s not the end of the world if I do. Only having 500 miles on my completely brand new 5200# suspension, and the low number of reported 4 leaf pack failures, and not wanting to ditch my 5 yr Dexter warranty by installing SOB, I opted to roll with this path forward. After my 5 yr Dexter warranty runs out I may opt to do something different. Maybe just add the Dexter 5 leaf pack for $279.80 plus tax and 4 new Ubolts. As far as I know there have not been any reported failures of the 5 leaf pack. I do think the Alcan spring is likely a fine product and only time will tell with owner feedback. It’s just not how I am choosing to move forward at this time. Cheers! And Go Camping! 😊 Patriot This will pack up easily in my truck bed. Torque specs provided by Dexter.

Rob, thanks for a great trip report! Valley of Fire used to be one of our favorite parks, but since the explosion of COVID camping, the crowds have made it not as pleasant a stay. The good news is that Nevada now has a reservation system that removes the uncertainty of finding a place in the park. The Mesa near Overton is another place to spend the night boondocking, as is the BLM land around Lake Mead. Buying a season pass is another way to reduce hassle.

Scuba Rx, that ASI 0240 sounds pretty good. Especially interesting it can be used as a tooling lubricant. I will try that. What I have been using with great success is Debond, and it is even more expensive! So I think it's going to cost you Geronimo John! Debond The big problem with silicone from a refinishing point of view are the oils it contains. You can clean it off with solvents and plastic razors to where the gelcoat looks pristine, but when you spray the surface with water, it still beads up all over. This is caused by the silicone oils having penetrated the pores of the gelcoat. Not completely removing these oils will interfere with the full bonding of any sealant you want to use, including silicone! You have to break out some 1000 grit automotive sandpaper and wet sand it out with the solvent of your choice (in my case, Debond). When it's all gone, I hit it with some finer grit (1200-1500), then a good polishing cleaner. The gelcoat will then look great, and be ready to be sealed, and most importantly, the sealant will adhere to the gelcoat! All this work is why I never use silicones to begin with, except in some rare instances. Also, if you do any finishing in your shop, be extremely careful to keep any rags, pads, sandpaper, or anything that was used cleaning your silicone problem separate and away from your regular shop supplies. Silicone contamination in your shop can be a total disaster for the finisher. Good luck! Dave

GJ, Very well stated. I received a call from Mike Sharpe last Friday. He did say that Oliver would continue to have a technical support staff that owners could call for troubleshooting. - Patriot

I don't - yet - know what the problem(s) were but we are back in business. At least as far as the main Forum goes. Regret the downtime. I will post more when I know it. Bill

This thread is locked per OP request.

My "Engineer" comment was to frame my perspective, never to be condescending to you or anybody, nor or to offend. For that please accept my sincere apologies. I have no special part to play in any decision OTT makes. Your comments are well intended and worthy of note. GJ

Get over yourself "engineer". Your condescending intros always prefacing with your "credentials" that make you smarter than the rest are overbearing. I'm no engineer and this is all very elementary to me. And I think the large majority are taking it all in stride. There's probably well over a thousand who have not chimed in on the topic because they are level headed folks that are just rolling with the process, or just don't care. The sky's not falling and the Oliver managers are still running the company with the same integrity they always have. What's up in the air right now is the character and integrity of a few people that are throwing a hissy fit cause they aren't getting their way. Oliver management could choose to fold the company and cash it all in, and they would still be within their rights to do so. Either way I would still shake their hands and thank them for making me one of the best campers ever built.

I owned a Casita for ten years and have been a fiberglass enthusiast for longer than that. I don't doubt the build quality of the Oliver, as that's why I upgraded..but also at a significant cost. Part of my choice was certainly factory service and for me, it WAS in the equation!

Not at all. The bulk of owners rarely need major service support and while the service resources are more constrained now the build quality has remained the same. Over the years I’ve looked at Escape, Big Foot and Casita and factory service was never in the equation. The Oliver is complex, but the essence of the trailer remains unchanged.

Correction to my previous comment. My axles are 3500 pound rated and 1750 pound rated springs. Sorry for the confusion.

The ring in the toilet is easy to replace and is available on Amazon. We use a little Vaseline on both sides of it after we dump and clean. Keeps it operating smoothly and helps it from drying out. I’ve only replaced it once. Mike

When you look into the toilet bowl you should see a black "ring/gasket" around the outside of the rounded part that moves when you step down on the pedal to flush. This gasket can get "stuff" stuck to it. "Stuff" can be all sorts of things to include mineral buildup. After cleaning the toilet you should gently wipe that gasket feeling for any deposits. If you can't get those deposits off and/or if the gasket is brittle then it can be replaced. On the other hand - if it seems to come clean you can then put a small amount of plumber's grease on it to keep it mineral free. Bill

We have the 3500 pound standard issue axles, four bolt brake backing plate and, 1750 pound springs. Dexter may recommend the 1/2 bolts but is that what Oliver actually spec’d out and used? Apparently Oliver spec’d out an oddball variety of axle components from time to time. For example a standard Dexter 3500 pound axle assembly would have a 5 bolt wheel hub but Oliver spec’d a 6 bolt version that would have been used for a 5200 pound axle but with the smaller bearings used on a 3500 pound axle. At least that’s what a Dexter representative once told me. The mix and match situation is not an issue for Dexter, they just need to know what we actually have.

Well. They won't be easy to remove. Time will tell on these. Here's 300 watts. I taped all corners after these pictures with light eternabond.

I had to take a step back, to better see this from your point of view. For me, I bought an older hull, half of new, thinking I could get all M&R up to date, add a few mods, and given sweat equity and a few more dollars we'd have a really nice TT! I had no expectation of warranty or dealer service. Just like the 40+ used cars and trucks I've bought in my life. In fact, on the many other forums where I am a member (Goldwing, Toyota, Cummins, etc.) we call them Stealerships which we only frequent at last resort. You just made a considerable purchase, less than one year ago. You still have warranty, and you made the purchase based on the ideals set by OTT, being a custom shop, building TTs to order, personal factory service not offered through dealers, making your new OTT purchase rather special in the RV industry. Seven hours from home was also a great benefit that I imagine played into your purchase decision. If I were in your shoes, I would place a call or two into OTT management. Best wishes, JD

OK - It appears that there were a few "issues" but mainly it was a combination of storage and technical data base things that were the source. It now appears that all is back to normal thanks to the great work (again) by Jason W. Bill

The way I see it, there are 2 reasons to buy a "luxury" RV: the product and the experience. Oliver makes a fine product, one of the best, but there have been some compromises over the years. Early Oliver trailers were custom built units with almost unlimited options available for the customer. As sales rose, OTT scaled up production. To do this they needed to streamline manufacturing. The days of having the factory add an extra outlet to your trailer are over. I'm not saying the newer units are worse, in fact they've continued to upgrade many of the systems over the years, but the product has become less personalized. Oliver trailers are still above the average, but there are others in the market with products of equal, or perhaps better, quality. Bowlus and Pebble come to mind. However, it's not just the product. Oliver also offered a top-tier buying/ownership experience, as good or better than any other manufacturer. Being part of the "Oliver family." Impressive access to the factory and it's experts. I would say, on balance, the value of an Oliver became more in the experience than in the product. There may be "better" trailers to be had, but no better customer experience than we were used to. OTT is now making changes that could diminish that experience: a dealer sales and service network. This has proven to be a more efficient and profitable model for many RV manufacturers. However, for many of those manufacturers, the system tends to be less responsive to individual customer needs. As an owner, I hope Oliver has a handle on this and can make it work better than other manufacturers have. I fear they're drifting into dangerous waters if the experience no longer warrants the price.

To add to my previous response. Oliver mixed and matched axle components in an effort to create an axle that was more durable than the standard version. No other camper manufacturer that I know of provides beefed up axle assemblies. They just use something standard and that’s why other campers experience more failures than the Oliver.

Patriot, I’ve done the same thing except I have two springs and enough U bolts/nuts for a complete axle. Springs are wrapped up and pack well.

@routlawThank you for posting your pictures and camping report. Well done! Mossey

Great pictures @routlaw! We're leaving in three weeks, couple of nights at Valley of Fire State Park (Lake Meade) on the way to St. George, small world! North Rim on the way back, if the road is open, Vermillion Cliffs and other stops.

No worries, but thanks for getting it done. I can attest its working fine now just uploaded a large batch of pics myself.

Years ago, when owning a Class-A, I called our local RV dealership (with 3 nearby locations). After They told me they were 2-3 months out, I replied no thank-you and have never again called an RV dealer for service. And for us driving to OTT for service is not practical. Fortunately for us, I can do everything we need to service our Oliver, though understand many owners cannot. I will job out fiberglass gelcoat, with a local detailer, not having these tools or expertise. I strongly suggest that most of you acquire a good local trailer shop, or owner-operated automotive repair shop you can count on. Most "annual service" can be worked by any reputable mechanic. Except for the fiberglass shell design, the mechanical systems are the same as any other TT or RV.

Unfortunately, there isn't and never was any schematic drawings of electrical and plumbing systems for the years 2007-2009. Likewise for the twenty-one 2014 models and the thirty-seven 2015's. Somewhere during the 2015-2016 period they had a company come in and design a wiring harness for the Elite II's. They bought them from that company at first and then started making their own. I remember meeting one of their interns during this period and he was working on both a wiring and plumbing schematic. I saw them on a computer screen in the supervisor's office out on the factory floor. So at least at some point there was that. At one point they provided them when when you bought a trailer. And then they didn't. I've never been able to get a straight answer from anybody at the factory as to why they no longer share them. I do know that one member has copies of whatever is (or has been) out there. I don't know what year trailer his copies reference. I suspect that they would be of little help to the folks that have a trailer less than 3-4 years old. I won't out him but I do know that he as shared freely in the past with other owners. If he sees this he'll probably reach out.

I think, personally, we all need to take a step back, and breathe. Yeah, I know, I have a 16 year old trailer. So, I can say, unequivocally, Oliver has never failed me. My belief is, they won't ever on the future, either. Right now. The amazing service staff at Oliver hq is charged with training outposts, which we have all longed for, over the years. That takes time. Obviously, I have been in for the long run, and will continue to be so. I can only think that service will continue to get better, with outposts around the country, closer to many owners, with the great support of Oliver central awesome staff.

Access to the expertise of the Service team in Hohenwald is also critically important to me. Perhaps delegating "hands on" service work to dealer techs will free up more time for the excellent Service Team in Hohenwald to provide just the kind of expert help rich.dev describes above to more Oliver owners, as the number of hulls on the road continues to increase?

But will the new independent service locations offer the same annual maiintenance program that OTT offered? Or put another way, will the independents even be told and trained of what OTT offered for the annual maintenance?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?! I was uploading pictures of the "Sasquatch' that we saw the other day, and not only did they NOT UPLOAD or APPEAR, but my original pics seemed to have disappeared too!!! How in the world are ppl going to believe in my sighting if I cannot post my pic's on the Oliver forum??? What is this Oliver World coming too?? Just Kidding... A Happy Easter to ALL-IVER Friends & Family. Bryan, Maggie, Willis (aka Kamper-Kat) as we prep for 'AK 2024'

We’ve been traveling in the Southwest, so I am just now catching up on some of the events. I have to say this “phasing out” is truly disappointing. Having bought a used Oliver, as well as being long distance from Hohenwald, I’ve always felt on my own, but it now seems a whole bunch more alone. Hopefully the Oliver forum doesn’t disappear or disintegrate. Paraphrasing Benjamin Franklin, either we hang together, or surely we will hang separately.

I don't blame you for questioning. But, Oliver has hand picked a group of smaller, family dealers, that have great reputations for setvice. Jason and crew will be training. My guess is, service hiatus after July is to allow training from best if the best. Let's give it a chance.

Great thread here! This post is key, from senior IRV2 member TeJay: "The cheap RV regulators don't regulate the pressure they just restrict the flow. That will in effect reduce the chance of over pressurizing your system if a CG has high water pressure. You do have a reduction of pressure but also a reduction of flow. With a true regulator you don't lose the flow or volume." Thank you, Bill & Martha! Yes, remove the cheap restrictors and purchase a quality pressure regulator. @Lisa Rae just came to this conclusion as she wrote above. I will also delete the installed restrictors. Lisa, you may consider removing the (winterizing/boondocking) brass water valves that restrict the flow to 1/4". I replaced them with motorized valves, or you could use manual valves that are 1/2" or at least 3/8" ID which is the true ID of 1/2" PEX connectors. Now I see why they only promise the 40-50 PSI range, since they restrict flow and not pressure. This is also the reason why my upgraded water pump provides better flow and pressure pulling from the Fresh Tank, vs when we connect the City Water inlet at the campsite. We still have the bathroom faucet issue, i.e. less flow than the kitchen faucet. There must be something inherent to the plumbing of our 2016 hulls, since many newer model owners do not have this complaint. I don't believe it's mineral buildup, since that would be everywhere, and I measured without the faucet heads installed. You can't "kink" PEX, but more length and multiple restricting connectors could do it. Also in ours, the plumbing in the vanity makes way more noise than our quiet new water pump. After we finish our travel this season, I will open the bathroom vanity and follow the water lines (and the furnace ducting) from the pump at the curbside bed to the wet bath!

Love to meet you one day, get around the campfire and play some guitar! Sounds Great! I usually travel with one, and always on longer trips.😂

This video is exactly the reason the shop only offers 90 days. The idea behind the 30- or 90-day warranty is for replacement of something not right upon delivery. You would be nuts to own a small business and have guys who drive like this come back after near 5 years of abuse! 🤣 Stop for a minute and try to think from their point of view. Want to spend another $325 ($995-670=$325) for warranty insurance on a $600 leaf spring purchase? Hmmm, WOW not me, are you crazy!?! You can for sure contact an extended warranty company and they will take your $$$ in a heartbeat! Why would you pay 54% MORE than your purchase for such coverage? OMG, just spend another $300 instead and buy another full set of leaf springs. The warranty WILL NOT HELP YOU broken down in Alaska or even 20 miles from home! Please think about what you are saying. This may be a very good supplier for our forum OTT owners. Lot of negativity expressed here (last half dozen posts) re the warranty, and @Mountainman198 and likely all, yes, I bet all of the other OTT owners that have had failed springs have NOT used the warranty they already have. So, if one of these springs fail on you, are you going to file for warranty? Or are you going to do what you need to do, to get back on the road. Uh, the latter. Let's PLEASE get off this trivial subject. BUY the spring or DON'T, it's a free marketplace. I'm happy to see they already have 10+ orders for servicing our OTT Community, and I will certainly buy a set as @MAX Burner did today within the next year (already put $6K into our money-pit OTT in the 8 months since we took possession).

There are times when purchasing a quality item just doesn't make any sense. Several years ago I was talking to a friend of mine about buying one of his sets of "Snap-On" tools from him. He said that given the amount of time that I would use this combined with the type of work that I do (hobby and repair) my purchase simply would not make any economic sense - his recommendation was to just buy the same set in a Craftsman or Kobalt or Ridgid/Huskey brand instead and pocket the extra money. However, there are certainly other times when plunking down that extra money makes perfect economic sense. And, can actually save money over the longer term. Having said this - in the case of RV's, hopefully buyers get a good handle on what their camping needs and wants are prior to buying anything. This is easier said than done though. It sure is awful nice to have all that room of a big 5th wheel until you find out that it is a big PITA to travel with let alone get into and out of many camping spots in more remote places. Knowing now that I really could sell my Oliver for (at least) what I paid for it 8 years ago pales in comparison to the joy I get when people can't believe that it is going into its 9th year and still looks new. Add this to the enjoyment I've had with Twist over the 8 years, I'm absolutely certain that this was the correct choice for me. But, if I only wanted to go to the local RV park for the weekend or had a bunch of kids, I understand that my decision could have been different. Bill